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darinwc
03-18-2006, 11:22 AM
For most people, ULF is way out their price range. Cameras and holders are difficult to find.
11X14 seems to be the most common ULF format. Should I start here?

What are the cheapest ULF cameras available and where can I find film holders for them?

Ole
03-18-2006, 11:33 AM
I recently bought an antique 24x30cm (9.5x12") plate camera with three double plate holders and a lens for about $250 off ebay. You can't get much cheaper than that, for a fully functional camera!

I also have a Russian 30x40cm camera, but it's so heavy that shipping alone is more than the $250.

David A. Goldfarb
03-18-2006, 11:41 AM
Older cameras like my American Optical or Korona or similar can be had inexpensively if you don't mind doing a little work on them, and if there are a few things beyond your mechanical abilities, you can think of it as a way of spreading out the payments. I think I paid $550 or so for the camera and around $325 for a new bellows. I had lenses in my 8x10" kit that covered the format and adapted the camera to use the same lensboards as my 8x10".

Filmholders are costly. No way around it, really, but if you can find a camera with holders, that's a good thing. You might at some point find yourself buying a second camera just for the filmholders and selling one of the cameras.

avandesande
03-18-2006, 11:56 AM
Look for cameras with rotten bellows. They usually go really cheap, and most of the cameras with 'good' bellows need new ones anyways.

Wayne
03-18-2006, 02:46 PM
DIY pinhole would be the cheapest way.

Shinnya
03-18-2006, 02:57 PM
Hi,

This is just my take on the issue of the cost involved when you start ULF.

I think it is very important to think squarely about how much it is going to cost you. I mean buying a camera or film holders are the just the beginning. Everything becomes bigger and costs you more, like film, papers, chemicals, and storage solutions... So, you should also look at costs of the consumables to find out if it is feasible or not. If it will cost you siginificantly more than what is costing you now, maybe it is not for you.

You don't want to be in a situation where you bought a camera and film holders, but can only shoot 5 sheets of films a month. You will still need to take a lot of pictures to get good ones just like 35mm if that is what you are after.

Warmly,
Tsuyoshi

Donald Qualls
03-18-2006, 03:02 PM
Go to the local home improvement store and buy a half or quarter sheet of 1/8" thick hardboard (aka "Masonite"). Get a few sticks of 1/2" square poplar for reinforcing frames. Get a bottle of glue, tube of brads, and then stop at the craft shop for a bottle of India ink and a small foam brush (for blackening the inside of the box -- helps cut down on flare). Build yourself a light tight box with a slip-in mount that will hold an 8x10 sheet of enlarging paper. Mount a pinhole in the front, with a sliding shutter or filter adapter to which you can attach a lens cap for shutter duty (make it fit your filters, if you have some).

Get a package of "soft" graded photo paper, and start learning exposures. Experiment with preflashing and developers to control contrast and improve shadow details (which improves effective speed). Contact print onto VC paper, using filters to control the print contrast.

Above shouldn't cost more than about $50, possibly as little as $30 or so, depending what tools you already have -- assuming you already have the setup to make prints (darkroom, trays, developer, etc.). You can't even get a used 8x10 film holder for that...

tim atherton
03-21-2006, 12:46 PM
sell your children...

Brook
03-22-2006, 02:03 AM
When I went from 5x7 to 8x10 I ended up with what I call format fatigue, the symptoms include the need to get more stuff and learn more techniques that you ever imagined, and make mistakes that are almost comical in time.

Two years ago I picked up an Anthony Normandie 11x14 field plate camera, circa 1880, for 150$. I thougt it was a really cheap way to get into ULF with an extremely rigid light weight camera. I already had some lenses for 8x10 that have great coverage and a zone VI tripod with a Majestic head capable of dealing with the camera. No big deal right?
There was the conversion for the plate back, and the film holders, and , well you really never have enough lenses do you? And the big packard shutter. Oh, and then there is the film. And a new light source for printing, and the negs sleeves, and you really need a bigger vacuum easel to convert to a frame. And its either a really big dark cloth or a new bellows for such an old camera. And something to move it all around in.

I am right now building a shutter box for the packard, and should be exposing film in the next few days. I suspect there may be a 3" 9010 richson brush in my future, as well as more chemistry and paper. And probably some new trays for film processing. Good thing the new Lodima paper is going to be available in 11x14. better get more amidol as well. And the need for more platinum and palladium....I know I am forgetting something here.... Oh, more money....

It wont be cheap. but if the siren sings....

Rob Skeoch
03-22-2006, 10:33 AM
I think large format and ULF are additive like crack. Only more expensive.
-Rob Skeoch

Donsta
03-22-2006, 01:04 PM
I agree with Rob - by far the cheapest is to avoid going down that slippery slope - perhaps buy some golf clubs and that may suck up enough of your time and efforts to stop the fantasizing about ever more expensive formats and gear.... I'd have to think that a 100 year old 11x14 with some holders for around $1000 would be the entry point. It has been pointed out that evrything else gets a whole lot more dear too. If you think you can live with 8x10 - DO!

Ole
03-22-2006, 01:42 PM
I've found out today that my $250 plate camera needs a new $300 bellows. Oh well.

Making it myself migh tbe cheaper, but I don't intend to start with something that has to compress to 33mm and expand to 700mm. And has an inside taper, with straight outside: Every pleat is different from the next one...

Steve Hamley
03-23-2006, 09:23 AM
Use a sound camera regardless of age so you don't waste materials.

So same advice for cameras as for lenses; get a good used example of a fairly modern camera. Figure in some maintenance costs depending on manufacturer, model, age, and usage. If you go vintage, figure on a bellows and a "tune up" by someone like Richard Ritter.

I just did this with a solid 8x20 Korona, and I'll have about $2500 in it including the bed braces, 5 film holders (3 Hoffman), back bail with new springs, extension rail, new bellows, Satin Snow GG, making sure all the screws were in sound wood, plus some other minor work. It was usable as purchased with lenses up to an 18" at infinity, but I wanted a bit more flexibility to use longer lenses or closer, and the old bellows, while light tight, was quite stiff.

You could certainly get into ULF for considerably less, but I didn't want to have to fight with the equipment and the camera cost is small compared to consumables. 25 sheets of Ilford 8x20 will run about $230 and a box of paper about the same (although more sheets), so it seems rather "unbalanced" to worry about trying to save comparable one-time costs in the camera, especially when camera problems cost you a lot more in wasted materials that can be hard to get.

Steve

John Kasaian
03-23-2006, 02:33 PM
Make a really really big pinhole camera. I used the box my computer came in (a holstien looking thing) and make paper negatives.

Box---free

Blackboard paint for the inside of the box---$5 or so.

Pinhole---make yourself out of shim stock or buy a readymade

Shutter---a chip of wood and a thingamabobble to keep it in place, you've probably got something you can use in your garage or junk drawer.

Printing paper---whatever 16x20 RC Freestyle has on sale.

Trays for developing---if you haven't got large ones, those black plastic tubs used for mixing mortar are worth looking at (the hardware store sells 'em)

Light meter---why bother?

Cheaper than a set of golf clubs!

Have FUN!
BEWARE! Highly addictive!

sanking
03-26-2006, 11:43 PM
ULF can be both addictive and expensive. But you might think of it also as an investment since you can easly re-sell the equipment if you need or want to, often for more than your investment. Because of the limited supply of new cameras and holders in the ULF sizes used equpment sells very fast. And that includes lenses as well.

If you buy an 12X20 Canham tomorrow for $6000 it will probably be worth at least $5000 five years from now. And used vintage equipment has been going up in price for years. You can not say that about a lot of photographic equipment.

So just tell your mate that purchase of ULF equipment is like putting your money in a saving account.

Sandy

dsphotog
05-21-2006, 02:47 AM
I've had good luck checking with old print shops.... 2 of them have given me process cameras....free!!!!! they were happy to have them hauled off.... the largest one has a 10 foot rail so it takes up alot of studio space, oh yeah it came with a goerz red dot artar too!! I converted the smaller one (14x18!!)
into an enlarger.
so check with older print shops, most have converted to ...(gasp) digital so the old stuff is in their way!
david s

User Removed
05-21-2006, 11:05 AM
I think just always checking Ebay would be your best thing to do. Clearly if your wanting to get into ULF, its because of the quality of print that can result from that size negative, so the suggestions about making a pinhole camera to put a piece of paper in are just silly! That would be a pinhole camera, not an ultra large format camera guys! Also, many people have made comments about an 8x10 camera, well...8x10 is not "ultra large format", just so everyone knows.

I purchased a Burke & James 11x14 off ebay for about 1,400.00. I also got 8 film holders and a couple lenses, and all together it has cost me about 2,000 for everything. I suggest getting a credit card and just putting everything on the card and paying it off as you can afford. I know alot of people don't have 2,000 bucks to throw down on a expensive camera...but the cost of ULF cameras and gears is NOT GOING DOWN...ITS ONLY GOING UP!

The suggestion about trying to find a camera with rotten bellows is not that good of an idea. Most people bidding on Ebay know how much the camera will be to repair, so they all bid about the same amount less then what they normally would. It would be best to get a camera for 1,500 bucks, rather then a damaged camera for 1,000 and have to invest hundreds of dollars for custom bellows and refinishing, and hours or time invested to fix it. Time is money.

Just get a camera that is in good working condition, and take care of it. It will probably never go down in value, so you could always sell it for more money later. Ebay also offers a "buyers credit" if you dont have a credit card.

I just say to dive in with both feet first, because there is no REALLY cheep way around ULF. Keep you eyes open for deals and take advantage of them.

Scott Peters
05-21-2006, 11:47 AM
Well, there is the initial 'afford' question...and then there is the longer term 'investment' question. I agree with Sandy, if you purchase right, you may even be able to get all your money back on the camera should you decide to sell at a later date. I would check ebay and also post a wanted here. But, if you can 'afford' to spend a little more upfront, you probably will enjoy your 'experience' more and still be able to get 'most' of your money back when you decide, if you decide to sell...

Robert Hall
05-21-2006, 09:21 PM
Bank robbery?

Curt
05-21-2006, 09:39 PM
Make one out of a paper box and a coke bottle bottom.