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Nige
04-01-2006, 12:43 AM
Is the Postcard Exchange not covered by this deadbeat list?

anthony


Hi Anthony,

So far the postcard list hasn't been part of the deadbeats but I'm kept in the loop. Rnd 5 had good participation with only one person not fullfulling their commitments. Hopefully we'll get a perfect score this round.

regards, Nige.

gr82bart
04-01-2006, 06:25 AM
Publicly referencing these individuals as deadbeats, named or not named, is uncool.So what do we call them? Some of these people haven't honoured their committment for more than a year and are still actively members of APUG?

Until you kow all the facts, I would refrain from future posts like this.So after several PMs have been sent to these folks over 6 months with no response and empty promises, but they're still active APUGers, we should just leave them alone?

I'm not one of them BTW...but I'd be pissed if I was.And the people who honoured their committment but didn't get a print?

Move on...One more vote to let the deadbeats off. Fine by me.

Regards, Art.

gr82bart
04-01-2006, 06:32 AM
I've not been in any print exchange so I'm not one of the "deadbeats" (But you have forced me into defending myself before I've voiced an opinion (Not Cool).I suggest YOU know all the facts first before you post idiocy like this.

The entire issue of who's a deadbeat and who's not has absolutely no relevance to the group (except in a voyeuristic way). This is only important to the moderator(s) who should be doing the best they can to keep the Exchange going, or find someone who will. I don't appreciate your airing dirty laundry in a public forum for whatever personal purpose you have.I'm not airing dirty laundry!?! I'm bringing up an issue that has had a negative effect on these exchanges - the NUMBER 1 reason more people do not particpate - and the issue is growing. This thread is about what to do. So far for several months, things have been done behind the scenes with little to no effect.

BTW the moderators have nothing to do with the exchanges, it's the volunteer organizers who do.

And don't give that B.S. your doing your job, you're not when you can't handle the messy parts.You need to really KNOW what you're writing about before you make a post. I won't even correct your errors in this statement here.

Regards, Art.

TheFlyingCamera
04-01-2006, 06:55 AM
Frankly, I'm all in favor of some kind of punitive action against people who sign up for print exchanges but refuse to send their prints. There should be some kind of system in place however, before said punitive action occurs. IE if they fail to respond to 3 PMs in 3 months, some APUG priviledge will be suspended (lock their gallery from more postings, no more than 2 posts per day, no access to the classifieds, you decide). That rule set needs to be in place BEFORE the print exchange starts, so that they know what the consequences are for not playing through before they sign up.

Karate Dad
04-01-2006, 07:41 AM
I agree with several of the posters here. If the number 1 reason for not participating is due to broken exchanges, and you want to improve the process, you need to look at a proactive process similar to what David describes. Although that process increases the amount of work the exchange coordinator must perform, it guarantees that nobody receives a print if they didn't send a print. If increasing participation via eliminating broken exchanges is truely paramount, the extra work should be inconsequential.
If you are looking to simply limit the damage without revamping the process, then it certainly makes sense to prevent people who have a history of creating broken exchanges to continue to participate in print exchanges. I don't think this should be a universal rule however. If the exchange coordinator chooses to look at the black list and limit participation it should be up to them. I would imagine that the coordinator should post the participation rules that the specific exchange is using so that people can choose to participate or not based on what they feel their risk might be.


John

photobum
04-01-2006, 08:29 AM
I have been involved in exchanges in other forums. You make 15 or 20 prints send them off, only to find that 3 or 4 months later the coordinator has given up on the dead-beats and you get half a dozen prints and 12 of your own back. Uncool! Uncool? Bull$#!+. Art has given these deadbeats over six months now. I agree with Jeff and the SLACKER tattoo. Although Flying Camera's punishment is more workable and deserved.

I started with the blind exchange because I was tired of making a number of prints only to be stiffed for my work. At least with the blind exchange it's only one print.
And that's the real rip. It's only one damn print. If you cannot send one print six months after the deadline just what are you? Uncool? No, your a DEADBEAT. And that's the best thing I can think to say.

If you live on the coast of Mississippi and your darkroom is now in the Gulf, That is a reason all could understand. But when 20% turn out to have lied, slacked, piked, stiffed or deadbeated, that is too much.

You got a problem with the deadbeat post? You talk the talk but don't walk the walk? Then don't join an exchange.

Art, thank you for all the work that you have done.

ChuckP
04-01-2006, 08:34 AM
I've been participating in exchanges for years. You always have your share of deadbeats. It doesn't bother me. I figure that the subconscious effect it will have on their photography is punishment enough.

Andy K
04-01-2006, 08:38 AM
I think I would be more likely to join a print exchange if they weren't so large... making and then mailing 29 prints is no small amount. Postage alone would be expensive.

gr82bart
04-01-2006, 08:46 AM
I think I would be more likely to join a print exchange if they weren't so large... making and then mailing 29 prints is no small amount. Postage alone would be expensive.The only large one to date is the postcard exchange. All the others are less than 6. The group exchange is 4-5, the blind exchange is 1.

Art.

Andy K
04-01-2006, 08:48 AM
Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood your original post to mean people were owing totals of 29 prints each.

mikeg
04-01-2006, 08:57 AM
I think I would be more likely to join a print exchange if they weren't so large... making and then mailing 29 prints is no small amount. Postage alone would be expensive.

Hi Andy

The blind exchange is only one print, the group exchanges are usually 3 or 4 prints. I usually send a 10x8 in a stiff cardboard envelope made for photos and if you send them "printed papers" rate it's not too bad, usually about 1.30 - 1.70 to USA or Oz. Yes, the postcard exchange has increased greatly this round -- it's currently up to 35 and I've just spent 15 quid on stamps this morning. But it's great fun and my favourite exchange.

Cheers

Mike

gr82bart
04-01-2006, 08:59 AM
Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood your original post to mean people were owing totals of 29 prints each.Sorry Andy,

That was the cummulative of all prints owed by those deadbeats from several different exchanges over the past year and a half.

In reality it is a small number from the overall total of all participants, but it is galling to some when many are active posters.

Regards, Art.

gr82bart
04-01-2006, 09:00 AM
But it's great fun and my favourite exchange.The postcard exchange is my favourite too.

Regards, Art.

mark
04-01-2006, 11:58 AM
Here is my take-I assume since I have not received a PM about it I am not a dead beat. Deadbeat is the right term though.

The exchange is free and voluntary. With everything voluntary there are risks. WHat I am saying is you get what you pay for.

Since the exchange is seperate from the site and the moderators do not have any say in it then I do not feel there is anything that can be done "officially" by those folks. I don't think posting the list of deadbeats, will accomplish anything except increase the hostility that is oozing out of the floor boards as it is. Personally I do not need to know who they are.

if the organizors get together and create a blacklist, the deadbeats will not be allowed to participate in anything. If they screwed someone in one then they get screwed in all, even if they do honor some of their commitnments in other exchanges.

For example: I join two exchanges and do not honor my commitment in one but do in the other. The next time around, when I try to join the one I successfully completed I would be told by the organizor that I would not be allowed to join until I honored the other commitment.

This would take some communication, and you might ask sean if it is possible to have a secure forum for this purpose.

The other option is to make the exchanges subscriber only as this would limit the number of participants and might decrease the deadbeats. Hmmm...Unless the deadbeats are subscribers of course.

On a personal note I do not get into exchanges to receive prints. I want feed back on the images I sent. I ask for it and for the most part I get it. I am not trying to build a collection.

Now, those who whine about the quality need to be told to kiss our collective asses. We do this for fun, and to the best of our abilities. Who the F#ck are they to judge. The quality of the exchange is not dictated by who joins. it is the enthusiasm of those who participate that makes it successful. SO to the snobs out there I say o0oo

gr82bart
04-01-2006, 04:48 PM
I was not judging you - I was trying to determine the reasoning behind this thread.I didn't think you were. I suspected you're a newbie and I wanted to clarify.

It sounds like you are not happy with the process currently in place in which case you, and the other print exchange coordinators, should consider changing it.It's not the process I am unhappy about, it's the fact people are not honouring their committments after they sign up. It's not like they didn't have enough time (some have had over a year now), it's not like it's onerous (most exchanges are less than 6 prints - the blind exchange with 1 - yes ONE - print to send has the largest number of deadbeats), it's not they aren't reminded (both PMs and public reminders are sent 1, 2, and 3 months after the due dates), and it's not like they are sick or have something else tragic in their lives (I know of only one person in that situation), so what is it?

The reason I suggested the poll is because it removes the coordinator from the line of fire and allows the people who are directly effected to decide the outcome.So I ask what the poll accomplishes? The jilted recipients still don't get a print and the offenders get off scott free.

Place a reasonable deadline for this poll and any person who fails to provide prints after this time goes on 'trial'.If they missed the original deadline by several months, what makes you think they will honour another one?

Detailing the commitment up front would perhaps make people use more careful consideration before they put down their name yet still give them an out under exceptional circumstances.This isn't that complicated. This isn't like signing a mortgage or something. It's simple. It's a print exchange. Everyone knows going in that you make a few prints to send out by a due date, give or take. It's that easy. Just do it.

Having an expiry date on the blacklist allows for reform.Sending a print allows them to reform AND honour their original committments. Once they do that they're off the list.

As mentioned they are just some thoughts which may be helpful for future exchanges. Yes, it will be more work but it may also be fairer.Thanks for the post. I still don't see how having a poll is fairer. For whom?

For those curious I'm not on the deadbeat list. :)LOL It's all moot anyway. Looks like people don't want to know their APUGer pal is a deadbeat in public by the looks of the other poll.

Regards, Art.

ras351
04-01-2006, 07:16 PM
Hi Art,

Please don't take my suggestions too literally - they are only suggestions and if nothing else should help you and the other exchange coordinators identify those areas which are felt requires some attention. Unfortunately short of using David's approach there is little way you can be absolutely sure of guaranteeing that every commitment will be fulfilled. Thankfully we are dealing with a minority. Consider the following analysis.

From what I can determine there are two types of 'misconduct' you are dealing with. The first, which is where I believe you are coming from, is where the print is simply delayed and in this case the addition of the 'offender' to your blacklist after a certain period of time combined with reminders is perhaps the best alternative. Rather than a public lashing a few posts on how superb the prints from the next lot of exchanges have been would perhaps provide more motivation for the 'offender' to honour their commitment. Any psychoanalysists here who can help on this one? Hypnotherapy perhaps? :)

The second problem is rather less tractable. We can either have someone who has no intention of ever honouring their commitment or someone who due to circumstances beyond their control is unable or incapable. Unfortunately nothing can be done about the former - it is a lost cause and although your blacklist deals with future exchanges nothing else can be done for the current one. Having said that I'd like to believe that nobody on APUG would fall into this category. The definition of exceptional circumstances is where a decision needs to be made as to whether the reason given for failure is reasonable and acceptable. Although these examples are not necessarily realistic I am suggesting this might encompass things such as a platinum exchange where someone develops a sensitivity to the chemicals or a dye transfer exchange where the materials become unavailable. It is fair to those people and would indicate a reasonable amount of goodwill for future participants to know that there is a way, given exceptional circumstances, that they can be removed from the blacklist. Part of that negotiation may include an alternative print or it may not. Rather than a single person being the judge/jury/jailer and hence being subjected to negative remarks or bribery :) I suggested a poll with the contributing participants deciding the outcome - I didn't suggest they'd necessarily get off scott free. You may already have something informal in place however by making this part of the 'rules' of participation it may help offset any perceived negativity induced by the threat of a blacklist.

You are of course free to discard everything I've said. All I am suggesting is that it may help avoid similar issues in the future if you attempt to address all possibilities at the start of an exchange which hopefully this thread has highlighted, and if there are penalty clauses then some procedure is provided which allows for appeal. The fairness comes from everybody, coordinator and participants, knowing exactly where they stand.

Then again maybe there's nothing wrong with the current system although I kind of like the idea of non-contributing participants requiring compulsory therapy as part of their remedy. :D

Roger.

Jeremy
04-01-2006, 07:36 PM
The percentage of prints not sent vs. sent is very small. Lower than 5% and as we (I am one of the organizers) weed out those who do not mail prints this number will become lower and lower.

gr82bart
04-01-2006, 10:03 PM
The second problem is rather less tractable. We can either have someone who has no intention of ever honouring their commitment or someone who due to circumstances beyond their control is unable or incapable. Unfortunately nothing can be done about the former - it is a lost cause and although your blacklist deals with future exchanges nothing else can be done for the current one. Having said that I'd like to believe that nobody on APUG would fall into this category.I believed that too, until I began organizing the Blind Exchange. In the last exchange close to 20% were delinquent and I hope they do honour their committments (this year).

Thanks for your thoughts.

As I said, it's all moot anyway now, since it appears people want this swept under the carpet of PMs. They don't want polls. They want this dealt with behind the scenes where they won't know their APUGer pal is a deadbeat.

Art.

Dave Parker
04-01-2006, 10:17 PM
I am not a participate in these exchanges for a very good reason, I never know what my schdule will be or if I would be able to fullfill the committment, I do know that when I was cordinating functions of this nature, that we normally had about a 75/25 situation, in other words, 75% would do and 25% never did, it was always figured into the equation when we came up with a paticipate fueled program, based on what we did in the past, after 2 times of people saying they would and then they never did, we just did not allow them to say they would anymore, saved a lot of heartache and trouble, if you can't follow through, no reason to join, but there are those who will join anything, then life or what ever gets in the way...I think, and this is just my personal opinion, if someone says they will twice and they don't follow through, don't let them participate anylonger, and let everyone know up front that is the way it works.

As far a knowing who the offenders are, I don't care to know, different people in different circumstances do different things..

Just my .02 as a non participate..

Dave

CarlRadford
04-02-2006, 03:10 AM
Hi Folks,

As co-ordinator of one of the exchanges I have been urged to express an opinion although I was trying to not get too involved.

First and foremost, the term 'deadbeat' is pretty hostile - whatever the reason they failed to honour their 'contract' name calling doesn't sit well with me.

Second - it is a contract to exchange - an agreement that should be honoured and I would feel agreived if I were not to get a print after making the effort of fulling my part of the contract but not everyone has the same attitudes and standards. A list should be maintained and those failing to honour their contract by the agreed cut-of date should be notified to the exchange co-ordinator unless a private agreement has been reached by the individuals concerned!

Third - anyone who signs up for the alt exchange that is on the 'non-exchanger list' will be withdrawn from the final group make-up until such time as previous contracts are fulfilled or the matter has been settled to the mutual satisfaction of the parties involved.

Last - but not least - if subsequent alt print exchanges are highjacked by non-echangers then I shall withdraw from organising them and set up private exchanges with those who are regular contributors to the forum and with whom I am confident!

Carl Radford
Co-ordinator
Alt Print Exchange