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Photo Engineer
11-01-2009, 04:08 PM
Bud and his employees are all capable of doing this AFAIK. They also do synthetic organic and inorganic chemistry. He has a reasonable staff to do all of the work needed there from maintenance, to bookkeeping, to packing, and to synthesis. Is this somehow relevant or important?

PE

Ray Rogers
11-01-2009, 07:25 PM
Bud and his employees are all capable of doing this AFAIK. They also do synthetic organic and inorganic chemistry. He has a reasonable staff to do all of the work needed there from maintenance, to bookkeeping, to packing, and to synthesis. Is this somehow relevant or important?

PE

You answered the following questions:

Who at the formulary are capable of making Formazo?
What else do they do synthetic wise?
Is Bud's staff suffciently equipped to support this sort of work?
and lastly,
What question could you ask that would imply I am asking unimportant or irrelevant questions?

Whose questions were those?
Certainly not mine!

I only asked who (not what company) was making those two emulsions.

Ray

Photo Engineer
11-01-2009, 08:21 PM
Who made or makes this material?




Does this mean Bud?

Two questions you asked Ray, not me.

Effectively, you are asking me to give the names and training status of Formulary employees. This, I believe to be proprietary information of the Formulary and as such I cannot divulge it.

The questions were yours, but the answers are not mine to give!

You are asking me to give out information that is quite private both at a personal and corporate level involving a company that I do business with. I consider the questions to be inapropriate.

I will not comment on your off-line comments to me via e-mail except to say that they are also inaproriate!

PE

Ray Rogers
11-02-2009, 02:25 AM
Ron,

If you are uncomfortable answering certain questions, I understand. No need to get upset.

Those two questions I asked are actually just a single question.
(I had to rephrased it for more clarity, after the frst one failed.)

The question I asked was a very simple one.
You could have just as simply said that you were not at liberty to speak freely.

(On the otherhand... if you don't want to answer important and relevant questions,
why did you even bring up the topic?

What did you did mean by saying APUG is not ready for the "backstory"?
What did you did mean by saying the "backstory" will NEVER be told?

I may be the only person here dumb enough to ask you these questions,
but I doubt I am the only one curious about it!)

If I ask anything of a proprietary nature that you cannot divulge,
we both know that you will not answer,
but please consider your role and function here as a "tease" that actually takes an active part in spawning the questions in the frst place! ;)

You are a one-time workshop leader with a handfull of students here on apug that freely admit to having taken your workshop and I have no reason to assume that asking about who made the formazo emulsions was off limits...

Again a simple answer would have been less inflamatory.

I do not wish to discrace this thread with further enigmatic comments...
provided no inflamatory comments surface either.

Ray Rogers
11-02-2009, 03:04 AM
I will not comment on your off-line comments to me via e-mail except to say that they are also inaproriate!
PE

Ron,

I think this PUBLIC statement is inappropriate!

If your intention is to "not comment", you're doing a nursery school class job!
There was no need to assail me publicly, by reference to that which others cannot independently confirm/evaluate.

I defend my integrity by hereby giving you permission to quote in full my so called "inappropriate" email comments;
I do not think they were inappropriate, but everyone has their own criteria I guess.
In anycase, people can judge for themselves.

Now, why are we having this discussion in public?
Why don't we erase or delete what seems inappropriate?

Ray

Photo Engineer
11-02-2009, 08:04 AM
Ray;

To paraphrase one private note you sent to me, you said that you had very poor people skills, and that you were like the "hero" on the TV show "The Big Bang". I have never watched it, but I do remember that you said that you tended to ask inappropriate questions. You alluded to this same note in an earlier post here on APUG in another thread.

Most people would know that the information you asked for was not for me to give out including sales and production figures, staffing, training and the long story that led to the final introduction of Lodima and Formazo. These are not my story. I have included in this list more than you asked, just to inform you ahead of time that there is a long list.

Also, most people would realize that someone can refer to a "play" without being a player in that play, but for copyright reasons they cannot divulge the essence of the play itself. I can refer to the scenario, but the entire story is not mine to tell, and I doubt if those involved will ever be willing to tell that story. And, I am not trying to infer that the story is bad, but merely that the information is proprietary.

People here have alluded to several back stories on products and companies, but they are not free to discuss them. I am not the only one in that position. Michael Smith has not directly revealed his long path to Lodima but he has alluded to it. He deserves Kudos for his diligent work, but we do not need to know his daily ups and downs, his highs and lows, his production schedule, his source nor his formula.

You, OTOH, seem to think that you deserve to know all of these things, especially from me (and my students).

And, furthermore, you put it in a public forum, and that is why my reply is here.

PE

Ray Rogers
11-02-2009, 02:18 PM
Big Bang Theory
I think it is not so much that Sheldon asks inappropriate questions as it is his near total lack of understanding of irony and sarcasm.
Of this I may be somewhat guilty. There is no "hero" on Big Bang Theory though. Seems like nearly everybody is a loser.... in one way or another.

I did tell you that it bewildered me how one handled being in a position of teaching, lecturing or speaking while being simaltaneously restrained and not being permitted to speak freely. I still find this a special skill set.

What Most People Would Know
Actually, at that point in time, I don't think it had been determined that the actual person making the emulsion was a secret.

My question brought this out in the open.

The long list is fine, even informative, I just want to emphasize my question was simple, public and proper (considerng that it could conceivably have been someone proud of their work, someone that welcomed the admiration such public recognition would bring.

I think the question needed to be asked.

Michael Smith did express a desire to eventually detail these things and I think it good to encourage this.

Why you have no interest in "...his daily ups and downs, his highs and lows, his production schedule, his source nor his formula." is a bit of a mystery.
Why wouldn't you be curoius?
They are absolutely facinating to me!

Your comment about what I seem to think I deserve to know is...
other worldly!

I sense no bond or obligatory link between myself and any of your students other than a common interest. (Had I had the money, I would have undoubtably been the first to sign up for your first workshop, just for the pleasure of being there! That was not possible, so from a financial POV, I guess you think I deserve to know less.)

Well, I would like to end on a positive note, somehow!
Ahh, how about this...

Hearty Greetings hurled from the hallowed hollowed heathen he who hails here from hell to hither...

Happy Halloween!

:o

Photo Engineer
11-02-2009, 02:34 PM
The "private note" referenced was first brought up in an APUG post, as I remind you. Otherwise it would never have been mentioned.

I do teach what is appropriate to teach, namely emulsion making and process solution design and questions regarding both. I do not go into private or proprietary information. It seems to me that you have a problem differentiating between those two. And, that is the crux of the whole matter.

As for having the money, well, you made it to the ICIS meeting in Rochester and you made it to the Ilford factory tour, but you managed to miss 3 or 4 workshops that I gave. So, you had the money and you had priorities. Now you seem to want to bemoan the choice you made? Or what is it you are trying to say?

Your comment about what you wish to know is intrusive to me and as I said, it is not proper for me to divulge information that is not mine to divulge. I don't give out names or doings of people or companies without their prior consent. I hope you agree that this is proper behavior.

PE

Ray Rogers
11-02-2009, 03:38 PM
The "private note" referenced was first brought up in an APUG post, as I remind you. Otherwise it would never have been mentioned.


True. It was first brought up in your post #43, wasn't it?


I will not comment on your off-line comments to me via e-mail except.... PE

So you mentioned it in post #46
because you mentioned it in post in #43?

And it was mentioned in post in #43 because...
???

Ray Rogers
11-02-2009, 03:57 PM
emulsion making and process solution design and private or proprietary information... a problem differentiating between those two. And, that is the crux of the whole matter.

Well the technology does not change with each new instance of private or proprietary information... so yes there is an inherent conflict with the same info being recycled again and again on one hand for (presumably expensive) "hidden" consultations and the (presumably) cheap wholesale of bulk informaton via workshops etc. on the other. How do you decide who gets to learn what for how much?

What are typical consultaton fees/conditons?
How does one choose a good consultant?

David A. Goldfarb
11-02-2009, 04:03 PM
I think we're getting off topic here from the question of evaluating an Azo-like emulsion to what seems to be personal territory. Ray, I think Ron has established that he doesn't feel at liberty to answer these questions, so I would ask that you not pursue them here.

keithwms
11-02-2009, 04:04 PM
Well.... :rolleyes: I bought my Lodima sampler ;)

SuzanneR
11-02-2009, 04:08 PM
I think we're getting off topic here from the question of evaluating an Azo-like emulsion to what seems to be personal territory. Ray, I think Ron has established that he doesn't feel at liberty to answer these questions, so I would ask that you not pursue them here.

What David said. Let's get back on topic.

Photo Engineer
11-02-2009, 04:23 PM
Thank you David and Suzanne.

I wish to apologize to the readers for this digression and to Ray for my erronious inclusion of a private note about Sheldon. It seems it was posted here in a different context and I confused the two (see Ray's posts about Sheldon in another thread).

That was an outright error on my part.

When I consult or teach, the students or the client get everything. The course starts at noon on Sunday and runs till noon Friday. The hours are about 7 am until 9 pm daily. The cost of the course and my share are determined by the organization giving the workshop, and not by me. This is to anwer any lingering questions. The students also get periodic updates for the remainder of at least 1 if not 2 years depending on their interest and my ability to stay in touch with them. So, they get additional information that I may post here, but in advance of the post, or they get information that I do not post here. They also get offers of chemicals that are mentioned in class. These chemicals are sent free to the interested students.

PE

Photo Engineer
11-05-2009, 08:08 PM
People comment on my posts quite frequently in e-mail or PMs. I get a lot of unsolicited commentary on what I post or what others post in response to my posts. It is a neverending story to me.

This unsolicited and anyonymous poster was sent to me not too long ago and illustrates in its own way why I am reluctant to make more information public. I hope it does not offend anyone. It is not my intent. It is merely to get a medium level established in the weird and bizarre life that I sometimes lead as I open my daily mail. Some are much more bizarre! :D

It is appropriate to be posted here as it pertains to this thread I think.

I hope you enjoy this poster and get as much of a laugh out of it as I did when I got it.

PE

AgX
11-05-2009, 08:27 PM
The person behind that graphic might have been inspired by the movie "Murder on the Screen".

JBrunner
11-05-2009, 11:04 PM
People comment on my posts quite frequently in e-mail or PMs. I get a lot of unsolicited commentary on what I post or what others post in response to my posts. It is a neverending story to me.

This unsolicited and anyonymous poster was sent to me not too long ago and illustrates in its own way why I am reluctant to make more information public. I hope it does not offend anyone. It is not my intent. It is merely to get a medium level established in the weird and bizarre life that I sometimes lead as I open my daily mail. Some are much more bizarre! :D

It is appropriate to be posted here as it pertains to this thread I think.

I hope you enjoy this poster and get as much of a laugh out of it as I did when I got it.

PE

Whoever sent you that obviously thinks quite a lot of you, to go through that much trouble.

Question- Do you think we will ever see a hand coatable AZO emulsion that can be purchased mixed up? I think Lodima is interesting, but I wouldn't mind coating some rougher papers... understand if you can't speak on it, but reading the OP it was the immediate question that came to my mind.

Alex Hawley
11-05-2009, 11:15 PM
WOW! Never thought I'd see my name on a movie bill, much less in company with an all-star cast. Thanks to whoever the "artiste`" may be.

David A. Goldfarb
11-06-2009, 05:56 AM
Question- Do you think we will ever see a hand coatable AZO emulsion that can be purchased mixed up? I think Lodima is interesting, but I wouldn't mind coating some rougher papers... understand if you can't speak on it, but reading the OP it was the immediate question that came to my mind.

Here ya go--

http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopModules/StoreProductDetails.aspx?productID=1250&tabid=9&tabindex=2&categoryid=0&selection=0&langId=0&Search=liquid%20emulsion

Photo Engineer
11-06-2009, 08:10 AM
Whoever sent you that obviously thinks quite a lot of you, to go through that much trouble.



Jason;

I wish it were true but based on the rest of my messages I would say that your statement only has a 50:50 chance of being right. ;)

David;

Thanks for the reference URL above.

The availability of Formazo seems to have been a well kept secret. It is now available premixed and ready for coating. It needs a suitable surfactant with some methods of application or on some surfaces and it will need a hardener on all surfaces. It will need to be processed using a hardening fix. It is available in two contrast grades. The reference URL is the lower contrast grade.

PE