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View Full Version : ILFORD ULF Make : Poor Level Of Orders [But Ilford comes through in the end!]



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ReallyBigCameras
03-19-2007, 03:52 PM
My guess is that some portion of the 150 boxes was for film that Wynit already had in stock from the last special order.

David,

I think you may be right. Two of the three sizes of FP4+ I ordered (7x17 and 14x17 - the third being 4x10) were already in stock at Wynit. If I had known those were stock items, I might have managed my order a little differently by throwing more of my money at 4x10 and maybe 7x11 in order to meet the minimums for those sizes. Due to the relatively high cost of the 14x17 and 7x17 film, at this point, I'm pretty much tapped out on my film budget, but if we're close to meeting the minimum for 4x10, I may be willing to break my piggy bank and order a couple more boxes.

Kerry

argus
03-19-2007, 03:56 PM
I guess you all exposed way too little negatives during the last year. I did ;-)

G

TheFlyingCamera
03-19-2007, 04:02 PM
I have not placed an order for 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 because of a current lack of available film holders. As this situation is about to change, I would be happy to order some if it will help make the minimum quantity. If the quantity burden is too great, I'll have to pass for this year.

photo8x10
03-19-2007, 04:27 PM
I put my little order for 2 boxes of 8x20, I did it before I have my 8x20 camera, that I will have at the end of April, so I decide to make an effort to buy two film boxes,(the camera is a bit expensive),and I have to learn to use this new format, but I'm sure in the future I'm able to put an order bigger than now....
Thanks ILFORD......

Best

Stefano

Rob Skeoch
03-19-2007, 05:47 PM
This is how it's been for me.
As a dealer I try to stock 11x14, 7x17, 8x20 and 12x20 in the ULF sizes in HP5. Usually only a box or two, but I'm in Canada so the demand is lighter.
When they sell I add them to my next order of 8x10 and 5x7 films. Working this way I've been able to keep each of these in stock.
In Jan. I ordered five boxes of 7x17 for a client but only two shipped and the other 3 were backordered. Whynit was then out of 7x17 until the next shipment from England or the next run of film I'm not sure.
It was like that for the past few weeks, but I got notice this week that they just shipped a partial shipment of 7x17. So they've got some more in from somewhere.
Films like 8x20, although part of the ULF order, were shipped right away so they had those in stock as well. I also had a box of 10x12 Ortho on order that shipped right away.
As a dealer I was surprised how few orders I received before the deadline, but then I wasn't involved in last years go-round, and I'm in Canada and may be my price wasn't competitive... I never compared what anyone else was selling for.
As far as 5x7 goes, I'm able to stock both HP5 and FP4 but the Delta 100 has a minimal order of too many boxes. I would like to carry it if it was avalable one at a time, but really Delta 100 doesn't sell near as much as the other two films anyway. In fact in 8x10 I'm my best customer.
-Rob
www.bigcameraworkshops.com

Curt
03-19-2007, 05:50 PM
Simon, how about some free samples so the rest of us can see what we are missing? A couple of sheets. Recently Kodak sent some new film, why don't you send out some film. Maybe the orders will go up. If you produce Pan F in ULF then yes I will be buying film in quanitity.

Rolleiflexible
03-19-2007, 06:51 PM
Simon, I asked several times for a run of HP5 in 3.25 x 4.25, but it was not included in the offering. I would have committed to buy 20 50-sheet boxes, and I know of at least one other photographer who would have bought substantial quantities of this size. Sanders

Rob Skeoch
03-19-2007, 06:52 PM
The problem is we're all setting in front of computers when we should be out taking photos. Let's take some photos this week so we'll have a need to buy some film.
Even Weston forced himself to take photos when things were slow, there must be something in the fridge you can photograph. something original like a cala lily or pepper.

Oren Grad
03-19-2007, 07:01 PM
Simon, I asked several times for a run of HP5 in 3.25 x 4.25, but it was not included in the offering. I would have committed to buy 20 50-sheet boxes, and I know of at least one other photographer who would have bought substantial quantities of this size. Sanders

Sanders, it was offered (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum146/36082-ilford-ulf-additional-product-available.html#post424100).

The challenge for us is that one needs to read every APUG thread on the topic religiously to stay on top of details like that as they emerge. The challenge for Harman is that this is a time sink already, and they have to prioritize their promotional efforts. So the question for those of us who care about this is, as always, what can we do to make this work for everyone involved?

Rolleiflexible
03-19-2007, 07:07 PM
Sanders, it was offered (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum146/36082-ilford-ulf-additional-product-available.html#post424100).

The challenge is that one needs to read every APUG thread on the topic religiously to stay on top of details like that.

Wow, that's terrible. I missed that post. I thought the definitive last word was Kerry Thalmann's February 28 post:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum146/37050-ilford-ulf-deadline-rapidly-approaching.html

which provvided this link to the sizes available:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum146/35986-ilford-ulf-make-full-details.html

Shame on me for missing the post you mentioned.

Sanders

waynecrider
03-19-2007, 07:12 PM
Simon, I asked several times for a run of HP5 in 3.25 x 4.25, but it was not included in the offering. I would have committed to buy 20 50-sheet boxes, and I know of at least one other photographer who would have bought substantial quantities of this size. Sanders

As Rob noted it as offered, but I decided to cut down 4x5 instead at what I remember as being a cheaper route.

Btw, was there ever a poll on how many people are shooting ULF?

PHOTOTONE
03-19-2007, 07:21 PM
I wonder, if the packaging is the problem in producing low volumes of ULF film? What if a standard box of say 16x20 dimensions was used for all ULF down to 11x14, then an 11x14 box was used for all sizes down to 8x10? Would this be enough economy to allow orders to proceed? Since the film is in a foil pack inside, I don't see any downside to having oversized boxes, if that is the only way to get the film. I would be curious to Mr. Galleys thoughts on this.

colrehogan
03-19-2007, 07:26 PM
I have not placed an order for 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 because of a current lack of available film holders. As this situation is about to change, I would be happy to order some if it will help make the minimum quantity. If the quantity burden is too great, I'll have to pass for this year.

I placed an order for 6 1/2 x 8 1/2, but just received two boxes from the Wynit stock (not complaining, I can give this camera a shot now!) I had only ordered 5 of this size, since I decided I wanted some 5x12 also.

jgjbowen
03-19-2007, 08:33 PM
Let me start by saying I don't have a horse in the Ilford race. I shoot TMY in ULF. With last year's TMY order Kodak shipped my 7x17 in 16x20 boxes. Do I wish they had used 7x17 boxes?...YES, but I understand that the marketing folks hadn't let the processing folks know the details, thus 16x20 boxes.

Any how, when J&C announced their "moving" sale, I took advantage and purchased a significant quantity of 7x17 TMY. Recently J&C inquired as to folks interest in a new ULF order for TMY. I let John know that since I had ordered so much last year, I would not be ordering TMY in 7x17 this year. My freezer if full, and I probably have 5+ years on hand.

My point is that I can't be alone on this. Folks likely stocked up on Ilford ULF sizes during the J&C sale and thus don't need any for a while. I commend Ilford for their efforts to support us, and can understand why orders might be down from last year. I think a lot of us stocked up the freezers with ULF to last us a few years.

We are all in this ULF situation together and I let John @ J&C know that I didn't expect to order ANY ULF TMY this year, but if he needed help to make a minimum order of 7x17, to let me know and I would pitch in to help make it happen.

Best to all of you,

John

Curt
03-19-2007, 08:48 PM
I asked several times for Pan F in 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 and Pan F or a slow speed 5 x 7. Why are these and other non ULF requests rebuffed or just blown off? And there is a time to photograph and a time to sit in front of the computer and do business. There isn't a manufacturers rep. who comes to the local camera store any more, in fact there isn't a local camera store any more. It's right here that the rep. comes and right here that the questions are asked. Some one will say that Adox / Efke has those speeds. I say that all of the ULF films are available from other manufacturers, what's the matter with those brands?

Terence
03-19-2007, 09:32 PM
It's been stated NUMEROUS times that the Pan F emulsion is not compatible with the sheet film base.

Bob F.
03-19-2007, 09:58 PM
It's been stated NUMEROUS times that the Pan F emulsion is not compatible with the sheet film base.Don't bother him with facts Terence... The guy has a bee in his bonnet over Ilford and takes the opportunity to be tedious every time their name gets mentioned. If they gave away free one-ounce gold bars with every pack, he'd still moan that it was only 22 carat gold... :rolleyes:

Cheers, Bob.

Curt
03-20-2007, 12:36 AM
Thanks Bob and I thought you were a great guy. Do a search, a lot of people want a slow speed, Pan F like emulsion in 4x, 5x, and even 2x3, that's inches. And believe it or not they would like Ilford to make it. I don't care if Ilford can't put Pan F on sheets. They can put slow emulsions on sheets. Its been done in the past and present. Check Adox/Efke, Rollei and others they are producing it.

Another thing about film. The ULF film is available in all sizes from other manufacturers not just Ilford so why are so many whining, please Ilford make something for me?

When the non Ultra Large Format users ask for something they are totally blown off. What are the ULF photographers who don't have AZO or a silver chloride paper to contact print on using; Ilford Silver Chloride paper? If Ilford cares so much why hasn't it stepped up and produced some contact printing paper?

Here is the tire, in one size, and you can find the car elsewhere.

Why is there a poor level of orders? Maybe because the company is doing something wrong, like not listening to the customers, it's expensive when you are disconnected. Maybe ULF has reached its peak and now is the time to step down.

I admit I am a hard sell, I can see and smell the BS thousands of miles away. The business environment today can't succeed for very long without honesty. If something can't be done it would be in the best interest for the company to explain in clear and honest words why.

If your community water was going to be changed and something was going to be added you would want a complete and clear explanation wouldn't you?

Bob maybe you should use the ignore button like Simon, and believe me I am not smiling.

Simon R Galley
03-20-2007, 05:14 AM
Dear All,

Thanks for all the feedback on ULF, ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology will do what it always does, listen to its customers and find a solution, which I will post in due course, I have to speak to people internally and in the US.

As to PAN F+ emulsion in sheet film, yes people are passionate about it, we would like to have it in the range and make it.... but it really is a bridge too far : Why, I will explain, once again :

1) Our sheet films are coated on a different base
2) R&D for transfer of a PAN F+ film emulsion to that base
3) Test coatings on a pilot coater
4) Manufacturing test coatings
5) Actual coating ( approx minimum 5,000 sq mtrs, minimum emulsion mix )
6) Testing
7) QC pass / fail ( if it fails its destroyed )
8) Finishing to sheet
9) Technical service : Evaluation Processing and sensitometric testing
10 ) Sales and marketing costs / translations etc
11) Cost of stockholding x 24 months

Forecasted sales ( Worldwide ) per annum all sheet film sizes between 1,000 and 1,250 sq metres ( approx 3,100 to 3,875 packets of 5" x 4" in 25 sheets ).

Within our quality regimes we could finish safely twice at a years interval from one coating, therefore we would use maximum 2,500sq metres.

Other 2,500 sq metres would be DESTROYED ( but silver recovered )

Additional cost of cold / controlled storage of parent roll


I have worked out the approx retail cost ( + or - 10% ) of 25 sheets of 5" x 4excluding any local taxes so that we would recover our total spend ( but make no profit whatsoever) in 2 years from the date of shipping the first order :

$ 113.07 per 25 sheets of 5 x 4
__________________________

This is why we do not, and will never make PAN F + in sheet film : No one would buy it at that price.....whether they loved it or not

I hope that explains the situation :

With Kind Regards

Simon. ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Scott Peters
03-20-2007, 07:34 AM
Simon, My guess is that folks have 'stocked' up in the past. Two thoughts - minimum per person order and VOLUME discounts per order to ensure a minimum and encourage larger orders..... If your total minimum in a certain sheet size is not reached, then run it six months from now and don't cut it now.....or run it once a year, stock it until it runs out (probably cheaper to run it once per year anyway and run more at that time.....

I appreciate your efforts.