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c6h6o3
11-06-2007, 02:13 PM
I feel that the Achilles Heel for the LF and ULF photographer is quality sheet film

Amen. While the grieving process for Azo was a painful one, we are all moving on. I would venture to guess that anyone putting up Azo for sale on Ebay today would get considerably less for it than he would have a year ago.

My angst, like Michael's, comes from the fear that they will stop making film. But the good news for us large format guys is that it seems to be the roll film that's in a Malthusian death plunge, not sheet film. Sheet film seems to be gaining converts all the time.

JBrunner
11-06-2007, 03:14 PM
great stuff ron :)

best of luck with your continued experiments!
if / when you sell "the bottles of liquid azo-like-stuff"
let me know, i will buy a bunch of it ;)


john

Now there is an idea. While the cost of buying individually hand coated paper might be prohibitive, an option to hand coat one's own paper, without having to "cook up" the emulsion, might appeal to many.

Photo Engineer
11-06-2007, 06:23 PM
You could coat it on any surface.

Well, tell me what you think is a fair price to pay per Kg (actually 1200 grams) which will make 100 sheets of 8x10.

It would include 1200 grams of emulsion + a hardener/surfactant solution suitable for coating on most papers. The latter mix would be in a 'part b' to be added just before use.

I might think about it.

PE

JBrunner
11-06-2007, 06:54 PM
A fair price would be one that covered the material, expenses and labor to produce and package it, the profit needed to motivate production. Hopefully that figure will fall in the range that the market will bear.

Do you envision the ability to coat with a glass rod, or brush, on fine papers such as we do with pt/pd or would it require a blade and smooth paper? I would be most interested in using it on the same types of paper used for pt/pd, rather than trying to emulate a factory produced product. Would there be grades of emulsions, or would it be the VC?

Christopher Nisperos
11-06-2007, 06:58 PM
. . . Is there any reason a person with financial backing couldn't have a "run" made by a facility such as Foma . . .

Umm . . . Foma already makes a contact paper, albeit on RC stock.

http://www.foma.cz/foma/produkt/FotoDetail.asp?ProduktID=21

Available at Freestyle.

Best,

Chris

JBrunner
11-06-2007, 07:08 PM
Umm . . . Foma already makes a contact paper, albeit on RC stock.

http://www.foma.cz/foma/produkt/FotoDetail.asp?ProduktID=21

Available at Freestyle.

Best,

Chris

It says it's silver chloride... anybody speak cz? We need somebody to get on the horn and tell them to put it on fb. Are all silver chloride emulsions created equal?

michael9793
11-06-2007, 07:15 PM
pt/pd is working for me now. 2 years and nothing. I savor my Azo like a good wine.

Photo Engineer
11-06-2007, 07:29 PM
A fair price would be one that covered the material, expenses and labor to produce and package it, the profit needed to motivate production. Hopefully that figure will fall in the range that the market will bear.

Do you envision the ability to coat with a glass rod, or brush, on fine papers such as we do with pt/pd or would it require a blade and smooth paper? I would be most interested in using it on the same types of paper used for pt/pd, rather than trying to emulate a factory produced product. Would there be grades of emulsions, or would it be the VC?

It can be coated with brush, by dipping in a tray, spraygun, or a rod with tape wrapped around it (this is to lay down enough emulsion otherwise the rod method will fail). It can use a coating blade as well, but that is only if you want near production quality paper. Alex Hawley has pointed out how good blade coated paper looks.

You can coat on just about any surface such as wood, paper or canvas. I suggest that paper be about 90# or higher. I've made some nice postcard type prints on 300# paper for example.

I cannot make VC yet, and it seems that it may be beyond my reach right now. I can make grades 1, 2, 3 and 4. They are, relative to azo, respectively about -1/2 stop, + 1/2 stop, + 1 stop and + 2 stops in speed as contrast goes up. A batch would have to be hand made for the order and would take about 1 - 2 weeks to fill due to making and testing.

It would not be usable on film, plate, metal or ceramic (glazed) surfaces.

This is totally a guesstimate right now.

A rough price estimate would set the grade 2 paper at about $100 - $200 / 1200 grams and would make about 100 sheets therefore making sheets cost $1 - $2 / 8x10. Just a guesstimate, as I said. It might be more. I have to do more figures on utilities (hot water and cold water along with a few other items).

The other contrast grades would cost more due to the extra operations and chemistry needed in producing them. Also, the higher contrast grades use more silver as well as the added ingredients.

Does that answer some of the questions?

PE

Photo Engineer
11-06-2007, 07:33 PM
It says it's silver chloride... anybody speak cz? We need somebody to get on the horn and tell them to put it on fb. Are all silver chloride emulsions created equal?

FB is harder to coat on than RC and cleanup as pointed out elsewhere, is a real problem. Single weight FB is very hard to machine coat by comparison to DW FB.

Silver Chloride emulsions are not created equal as you can see hinted at in posts by M&P regarding their efforts.

For further information on this, you might try getting Alex Hawley's further comments here. My comments are not as objective as his would be. I wish I were able to refer to other tests as well as Alex's.

PE

JBrunner
11-06-2007, 07:38 PM
PE,

If nobody thanked you today,for your interest, efforts, knowledge and talents,

No matter what comes of it, thanks.

J

Photo Engineer
11-06-2007, 07:40 PM
Thanks.

I've had a rough week today. This interest has helped.

PE

Thomas Bertilsson
11-06-2007, 10:31 PM
I too would like to chime in on Jason's comment and offer my thanks for what you do to keep going with this and all other projects you do. You really are a super-hero for doing it, and this community is much richer because of your contribution.
I have 100 sheets of Azo sitting around, waiting for me to get an 8x10 camera and some Amidol to process prints. I would hope that some day I can either coat paper myself, or the work you undertake would come to fruition.
- Thomas

JLP
11-06-2007, 11:50 PM
Ron, Another Thank You.
Your entusiasm and hard work continues to inspire and impress.
Have not participated in the discussion but have been following the thread with much interest.


jan

chrisf
11-07-2007, 06:53 AM
I'm coming to this a little late but here is where I'm at regarding this topic. I am down to my last sheet or two of Azo grade 2, Canadian. I first got into lf photography a couple of months before Kodak made the announcement that they were discontinuing the manufacture of all B&W papers. My grade 3 ran out a while ago.

If M&P are successful I will buy that paper, next to that, as Jason said, I'm interested in being able to buy an emulsion I don't have to cook up. I'm sure I could learn the technique of coating my own paper.

As far as a VC Azo like paper stocking one emulsion would be preferable so I would use it. Dealing with the different light sources is workable for me.

While the initial cost would be high; learning to use it, I would think the price of up to $2.00 per 8 x 10 sheet is acceptable.

Ron, thank you for all your work and sharing in this matter.

chris

Photo Engineer
11-07-2007, 08:10 AM
Guys;

Thanks again for all of the positive comments. I will try to merit them by producing something usable for you all someday. I was a big fan of Kodak B&W papers and mourned their passing. I took this issue up with Mr. Perez personally when I had the opportunity, and I know that this was a hard decision for him and for Kodak.

But, what can you do when your market drops from about $20 B in 10 years or so to about $1 B. You have to recognize that. What I'm trying to do is build from the bottom up. Azo, Kodabromide and then a solid PX or SXX ortho type film. I have the first two down pat, and the third is there but varies too much and is too hard to make, so I'm a workin' on it!

My best wishes to all of you.

PE

Christopher Nisperos
11-07-2007, 12:54 PM
It says it's silver chloride... anybody speak cz? We need somebody to get on the horn and tell them to put it on fb. Are all silver chloride emulsions created equal?

J,

Click on the English flag, upper right.

I've asked them about it several times over the years, begining in the early 1990's when I lived in Prague and before I met Mirko or Michael + Paula. They weren't interested (see PE's comments for a possible explanation). Not too long ago I suggested the idea to Mirko. Not very commercially viable, apparently.

I say leave it to Michael + Paula —perhaps combined with a second, home-brew version from Ron Mowrey (yes, thanks, P.E.!). It those two projects ever come to fruition, that'd probably hold us for awhile, n'est ce pas?

Best,

Chris

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