PDA

View Full Version : Making a Dye Transfer Matrix film



Pages : 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Photo Engineer
07-09-2007, 01:37 PM
And therein lies the problems with getting film support!

I wanted Jim to answer this with the facts rather than my remembered guesstimates.

Thanks Jim.

PE

rmazzullo
07-09-2007, 02:33 PM
So, I guess the question that may need revisiting, is:

Is there is a way to sub untreated polyester or acetate that we can do ourselves that will provide the same flexibiity and adhesion as a commercial formula? The thinking here is that once this is accomplished, we should be able to get untreated polyester or acetate more easily and in smaller quantities (and cut sizes), and sub / emulsion coat to our heart's content.

Thanks,

Bob M.

Photo Engineer
07-09-2007, 02:50 PM
Yes, there is a way to sub some types of transparent support, but not Estar types. They are much harder to sub and I have no formulas for their subbing. Kodak used electron bombardment.

Doing the subbing in a uniform manner with high quality is going to be difficult. Each step reduces the yield. I have published a subbing for acetate here somewhere. If I run across it I'll do it again.

PE

rmazzullo
07-09-2007, 03:23 PM
PE,

If an anti-halation dye can be added to a subbing formula prior to coating, wouldn't this give us an opportunity to perfect the hand coating technique with room lights on before getting to the more expensive emulsion coating step?

Thanks,

Bob M.

Photo Engineer
07-09-2007, 04:09 PM
Ummm, Bob, I do that all the time. It is explained in the slide show that is a sticky on this forum. I teach that method to all of my students.

But, since AH dye is expensive, I use food colorings.

PE

ben-s
07-09-2007, 04:51 PM
Would it be possible to find a company who uses the film itself, and group buy a single roll through them?
Maybe they could even slice it into subrolls for a fee?

Photo Engineer
07-09-2007, 06:23 PM
Several people are working on several solutions to this one.

PE

z-man
07-09-2007, 11:22 PM
Jim Browning has posted at his web site all of the sources for every product he uses in the formula posted above. Please read his article carefully and look at the pictures. Everything is there that you need.

PE

I AND EVERYONE IN MY BLDNG HAS TROUBLE RE PDF DOWNLOADS-THAT INCLUDES GETTING AN UNCORUPTED COPY OF ADOBE READER

JPEGS COME THRU FINE-VERIZON AND ALL ISPS HAVE NO SOLUTION TO THIS PROBLEM SO I CAN'T READ THE ARTICLE-BLDNG WIRE IS THE LIKELY SUSPECT

I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO MOVE FOR 1 1/2 YRS BECAUSE OF VARIOUS ISSUES THAT MNGMNT WON'T ADDRESS RE NON SUPPLY OF SERVICES TO TENNANTS

LIFE IN THE BIG CITY IS LIKE THAT

MY COURT CASE WITH BLDNG MNGMNT IS UP FOR ANOTHER APPEARANCE BEFORE THE JUDGE ON JULY 16-EVERYBODY PLEASE WISH ME LUCK SO I CAN GET OUT OF MY LEASE AND MOVE

VAYA CON DIOS

Photo Engineer
07-10-2007, 10:38 AM
I wish I could convert it to a document for you that you could download. I can't do that though. I don't have the software.

The pictures and graphs are plentiful and it is filled with information. Jim did post the source of support and problems associated with it above.

I wish you the best.

PE

Steve Smith
07-10-2007, 11:01 AM
It is 7 mil (0.007") Estar for all practical purposes.

One side is subbed to accept aqueous coatings.

PE

At work, we screen print solvent based conductive inks and aqueous based UV cure inks onto polyester (and polycarbonate) sheets which have a print receptive coating.
Would you know if it is likely that these coatings would also aid the adhesion of an emulsion? It seems likely to me but I don't have any real basis for thinking this.

The materials we use are usually 5mil thick from Autotype and General Electric. If anyone wants some small pieces (A4/Letter size) to experiment with, I can post some.


Steve

Photo Engineer
07-10-2007, 11:24 AM
At work, we screen print solvent based conductive inks and aqueous based UV cure inks onto polyester (and polycarbonate) sheets which have a print receptive coating.
Would you know if it is likely that these coatings would also aid the adhesion of an emulsion? It seems likely to me but I don't have any real basis for thinking this.

The materials we use are usually 5mil thick from Autotype and General Electric. If anyone wants some small pieces (A4/Letter size) to experiment with, I can post some.


Steve

Steve;

They will work if you can apply aqueous coatings, but the problem is that they must be photo inactive. Some subbings will fog emulsions.

Also, 5 mil will preclude use in LF and ULF applications. The material can buckle in the holder, and the emulsion will not be at the correct focal plane by up to 2 mil depending on the way the frame works.

PE

z-man
07-11-2007, 04:34 AM
Yes, there is a way to sub some types of transparent support, but not Estar types. They are much harder to sub and I have no formulas for their subbing. Kodak used electron bombardment.

Doing the subbing in a uniform manner with high quality is going to be difficult. Each step reduces the yield. I have published a subbing for acetate here somewhere. If I run across it I'll do it again.

PE

if you can find the sub formula i will do somthing nice with:

a 25 sht pad of 9x12 cellulose acetate-$12 american at most art supply vendors

4mil poly sheets --coated both sides with gelatine ---20"x26 " --are $1.64 ea for a 1/2 doz order at my favorite supply house--- am i missing something by assuming that i can use this to either over coat with emulsion, or; sensitize the exsisting gel coat---dont know if this is same stuff i used 20 yrs but i am going to try this particular material since the coat on other side will allow it to be self laminatd to any support i chose

there is a material with trademarked name: "dura-lar" this is sold as suitable for color seps-i suspect it is polyestar

comes in 3, 5, 7, 10mil 10mil is $50 for a 40" by 12ft roll

they sell the both side gel coated poly for a small differnce in price from the uncoated-approx $24 for coated equiv area to $17 uncoated

i must be missing something

i don't understand

as usual

z

vaya con dios

Steve Smith
07-11-2007, 04:41 AM
They will work if you can apply aqueous coatings, but the problem is that they must be photo inactive. Some subbings will fog emulsions.

Some of our materials have a treatment to make them ink receptive rather than a coating. I assume it is a very mild surface texturing.

We have 7mil material too but do not use it as much as 5mil.

One day I may do some coating experiments. Is there an easy way to make up a non-working emulsion to experiment with? i.e. something with the same viscosity and adhesion properties but easier to make than a full emulsion?


Steve.

ben-s
07-11-2007, 05:57 AM
One day I may do some coating experiments. Is there an easy way to make up a non-working emulsion to experiment with? i.e. something with the same viscosity and adhesion properties but easier to make than a full emulsion?


This sounds interesting.
You should be able to make a dummy emulsion with gelatine, water, dye and hardener.
PE would be able to enlighten us further, I think, as he uses a dummy emulsion to test for coating quality.

Photo Engineer
07-11-2007, 12:41 PM
Formula for Acetate sub:

Methanol 2250 cc
Acetic Acid 50 cc.
Stock solution 1700 cc
Acetone 7400 cc
Fomalin 25 cc

Stock Solution:

Gelatin 450 g
DW 540 cc
Acetic Acid 540 cc
3500 cc methanol
Dissolve all ingredients then add 3750 cc methanol.

This formula is very flammable and the fumes are very toxic. BEWARE. I take no responsibility for the use of this formula.

I have posted another formula here IIRC.

PE

rmazzullo
07-11-2007, 12:53 PM
PE,

Do you know if the acetic acid is glacial acetic acid? What should the solution strength of the acetic acid be?

Thanks,

Bob M.

Photo Engineer
07-11-2007, 02:15 PM
Bob;

I'm quoting a formula as printed. Thats all I know. I prefer to buy subbed film and let others worry about subbing it for me. Sorry.

PE

z-man
07-12-2007, 02:45 AM
Formula for Acetate sub:

Methanol 2250 cc
Acetic Acid 50 cc.
Stock solution 1700 cc
Acetone 7400 cc
Fomalin 25 cc

Stock Solution:

Gelatin 450 g
DW 540 cc
Acetic Acid 540 cc
3500 cc methanol
Dissolve all ingredients then add 3750 cc methanol.

This formula is very flammable and the fumes are very toxic. BEWARE. I take no responsibility for the use of this formula.

I have posted another formula here IIRC.

PE

pe -thanx but i think i will stick to ready rolled in this case-guess that is why you can get gel coated polyestar now

what about the gelatine coated poly sold by art supply?-you mentioned possible that stuf in subings would fog lite sensative overcoat-the price is low enuf for recon by dong but i am curios now esp since you said it was so difficult to sub estars??---then there is the light pipe problema---

yes there is a good reason i want to laminate it to a support like glass or lexan or aluminum

vaya con dios

Photo Engineer
07-12-2007, 08:17 AM
There is a reflective polymer support with subbing that is called YUPO. I have coated my emulsions on it with no problem with fog or other changes, but it is not a very robust support in terms of adhesion. I have not worked out the hardening situation due to other priorities.

PE

Bill Mitchell
07-12-2007, 08:35 AM
After 55 years my framed and hung in well-lighted rooms (no direct sunlight) Dye Transfers are showing just a trace of faded skintones. Boxed prints continue to appear perfect, as do Kodachrome prints from Kodak.
I gave up Dye Transfer years ago for masked Cibachrome (from Kodachromes), then switched to Ektaflex (from Ektra 25 and 1000 negatives), now after several years shooting only B&W (Ilford Gallery and Agfa Portriga Rapid), I've gone digital. Anything I could do with Dye Transfer I can do better and easier with PhotoShop and inkjet.