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jp80874
10-20-2007, 05:00 PM
Pierre-Jean,

Thank you. This link was posted at the begining of the thread. Is it the same 17 pages you offer? If so thank you. I found it very interesting.
http://www.breker.com/Anzeigen/NIEPCE%20english.pdf
I was not in a position to bid on such a prize, but the history and the discovery is very exciting.

John Powers

Bickart
10-21-2007, 06:01 AM
Pierre-Jean,

Thank you. This link was posted at the begining of the thread. Is it the same 17 pages you offer? If so thank you. I found it very interesting.
http://www.breker.com/Anzeigen/NIEPCE%20english.pdf
I was not in a position to bid on such a prize, but the history and the discovery is very exciting.

John Powers

Thank you John,
It's the right link, only difference, the Spanish version is not online.
I am sorry you were not in a position to bid, I think it could have been a good investment, if we discover in 2009 that the "new" letters from Niepce are mentioning this small "box" as Daguerre was calling the Niepce cameras!
Pierre-Jean Bickart

Christopher Nisperos
10-21-2007, 05:47 PM
Bonsoir Christopher,
Désolé pour cette réponse tardive, j'avais perdu mon mot de passe et je viens de le retrouver!
Bien sur, le premier verre sera pour moi...
Je ne suis pas neutre dans cette vente, j'ai travaillé depuis pas mal de temps sur cette petite chambre à la demande d'Auction Team Köln qui a fait la vente Samedi dernier et j'ai reçu beaucoup d'aide d'excellents amis et spécialistes.
Je ne suis pas expert mais je connais un peu l'histoire de cette chambre. J'en ai d'ailleurs parlé avec "the people in the know" il ya deux ans et ni "eux" ni moi ne pouvions imaginer ce que nous avons appris en deux ou trois ans.
I am sorry Christopher, I do not know how to behave on a forum. I just have a 17 pages text and pictures describing this small box and what we think to be its "story". I do not have your email address. Please tell me how to send you this text, just for your information, NO PUBLICITY.
All the best.

Pierre-Jean

Merci, Jean-Pierre, pour ton reponse .. for the benefit of this (mostly anglophone) forum, I'll answer you in English. Apologies to English-only readers for my previous post in French.

Thank you anyway for offering to send me your report on the camera in question, however, as I have already mentioned to you, this affair is not very important to me. I was just passing along some information.

I will reiterate however that there is nothing wrong with a prospective buyer of a very expensive antique wanting more than anecdotal information about its origins. In the absence of solid proof, I'm afraid that even a report of 1000 pages would still be just that: anecdotal!

The statement issued by Pierre-Yve Mahé and Jean-Louis Marignier (of the Niepce House project and www.niepce.com) raised an excellent point: since other photographic pioneers who dealt with the optician Vincent Chevalier were active in the Chalon-sur-Saône area and at the same period as Niepce —such as Joseph Fortuné Petiot-Groffier and Abel Niepce de Saint Victor— why the rush to judgement that the camera was that of Niepce and not someone else? Just to give it more value? I mean, perhaps the camera was Niepce's . . . and perhaps not. It's this second option which is at the heart of the polemic. Probably, it would have been more forthright to present the object thusly: "Perhaps the camera of Niepce". Then there might have been less howling, n'est-ce pas?

Sorry, nothing against you, but the question naturally comes to mind. Hope you'll still buy me that glass of wine!

Bien à toi,

Christopher

PS: It certainly is unfortunate that you couldn't find your password for APUG —and respond to the comments about the authenticity of the camera—
until after the camera was auctioned-off. In the future you can have this sent to you by the forum software. It takes just a second!

. . . . .

TheFlyingCamera
10-21-2007, 05:57 PM
I think it suffices to say that this is an item of unproven provenance. I don't know enough about antique camera values, particularly cameras of this vintage, to say if that was a fair price or not for an item of uncertain provenance, but I hope that the buyer factored that in to their bidding. I helped my parents buy a pencil sketch which was attributed to but not documented to be by John Singer Sargent. The price was more than fair, since the attribution was unproven, and stated to be as such. I think the issue here is the statements that were made regarding the marketing of this camera that were quite affirmative in their attribution of the camera to Niepce. Lacking serial numbers and/or sales receipts, the best we can hope for is a "period authentic camera LIKE one used by Niepce".

Christopher Nisperos
10-21-2007, 06:07 PM
I think it suffices to say that this is an item of unproven provenance...I hope that the buyer factored that in to their bidding... I think the issue here is the statements that the camera [belonged] to Niepce. Lacking serial numbers and/or sales receipts, the best we can hope for is a "period authentic camera LIKE one used by Niepce".

Right arm, Scott.


. . . .

Jim_in_Kyiv
10-21-2007, 10:16 PM
Thank you John,
... I think it could have been a good investment, if we discover in 2009 that the "new" letters from Niepce are mentioning this small "box" as Daguerre was calling the Niepce cameras!
Pierre-Jean Bickart

and if we discover in 2009 that it was owned by his fifth-cousin Bernard?

Also, do you think the value would change if a letter was found stating that he tried the camera, but got rid of it because he didn't like the bokeh?

walter23
10-21-2007, 10:56 PM
You can get a kodak brownie or just about any old box camera for a lot less than 50,000 euros. Probably works better.

Collectors are kind of ridiculous. The thing belongs in a museum, not the private shelf of some rich guy. The fact that whether or not it was ever owned by Niepce would have such a dramatic impact on the value just reiterates this fact. It was an old camera, it was from the same period, it was from the same region. Same difference.

jnanian
10-21-2007, 11:05 PM
You can get a kodak brownie or just about any old box camera for a lot less than 50,000 euros. Probably works better.

Collectors are kind of ridiculous. The thing belongs in a museum, not the private shelf of some rich guy. The fact that whether or not it was ever owned by Niepce would have such a dramatic impact on the value just reiterates this fact. It was an old camera, it was from the same period, it was from the same region. Same difference.

but would they have the godfather of photography, who got so little
"respect" he photographed himself as a drowned man's signature dry-pointed
inside the camera? THAT is the question ... ;)