PDA

View Full Version : Nicephore Niepce camera on Ebay



Pages : [1] 2

Samuel Hotton
10-05-2007, 12:38 AM
Good evening everyone,
"ya just gotta see this"!! eBay item # 270167088524
You can read about this camera at http://www.breker.com/Anzeigen/NIEPCE%20english.pdf

This would be the antique camera to end all antiques!
I'm speechless!
Sam H.

c6h6o3
10-05-2007, 09:54 AM
This would be the antique camera to end all antiques!
I'm speechless!


The flea market find of the century, that's for sure.

TheFlyingCamera
10-05-2007, 10:06 AM
I wonder how many tens of thousands that will go for...

c6h6o3
10-05-2007, 11:18 AM
I wonder how many tens of thousands that will go for...

The listing says 50,000.00-100,000.00 euro. If it's genuine, that's probably conservative. My God, what a find!

Sanjay Sen
10-05-2007, 11:31 AM
I would have expected such a valuable item to be auctioned "properly" via an auction house, no?

Ian Grant
10-05-2007, 11:46 AM
I had to read the title twice, then clean my reading glasses.

Sotheby's have stopped their specialist camera / photographic auctions. Evidently many of the collectors are rather aged and younger buyers have differing tastes. Also internet sales have democratised the market making older collectable equipment much easier to find.

Ian


I would have expected such a valuable item to be auctioned "properly" via an auction house, no?

David A. Goldfarb
10-05-2007, 12:10 PM
It's an eBay live auction, so it is being auctioned traditionally via an auction house in Cologne, Germany, and absentee bidders are able to bid through eBay.

Sanjay Sen
10-05-2007, 12:46 PM
Ah, I see...

Do you think it will meet or exceed the estimate? Just curious about your opinion. I think it will exceed EUR 100,000.

Uncle Goose
10-06-2007, 04:51 AM
I had to read the title twice, then clean my reading glasses.

Sotheby's have stopped their specialist camera / photographic auctions. Evidently many of the collectors are rather aged and younger buyers have differing tastes. Also internet sales have democratised the market making older collectable equipment much easier to find.

Ian

You are right, in certain branches of collecting fewer and fewer collectors appear, many get old and well, you know, die. It's the same with militaria collections, when I go to a militaria fair I feel like a kid (I'm almost 30 years old) because most are 60+. Same with photography fairs here in Belgium, most are 50+ because those youngsters go for the digital way instead of traditional.

Christopher Nisperos
10-08-2007, 05:23 AM
Good evening everyone,
"ya just gotta see this"!! eBay item # 270167088524
You can read about this camera at http://www.breker.com/Anzeigen/NIEPCE%20english.pdf

This would be the antique camera to end all antiques!
I'm speechless!
Sam H.

People "in the know" here in France —involved in the restoration* of Niepce's home in Chalon-sur-Saône and the creation of the website, www.niepce.com — have indicated to me that they seriously doubt that this camera was that of Niepce. Bidder beware!

Best,

Christopher

PS - it should be mentioned that during the restoration —and transformation— of the house into a museum, they actually found several of Niepce's cameras and lab equipment in the attic . . .
. . . . . .

c6h6o3
10-08-2007, 08:20 AM
People "in the know" here in France —involved in the restoration* of Niepce's home in Chalon-sur-Saône and the creation of the website, www.niepce.com (http://www.niepce.com) — have indicated to me that they seriously doubt that this camera was that of Niepce. Bidder beware!


That's why I would want Sotheby's or Christie's to verify the provenance. Such an item auctioned on Ebay makes me nervous just for that fact alone.

Bickart
10-09-2007, 11:34 AM
People "in the know" here in France —involved in the restoration* of Niepce's home in Chalon-sur-Saône and the creation of the website, www.niepce.com — have indicated to me that they seriously doubt that this camera was that of Niepce. Bidder beware!

Best,

Christopher

PS - it should be mentioned that during the restoration —and transformation— of the house into a museum, they actually found several of Niepce's cameras and lab equipment in the attic . . .
. . . . . .

Hello Christopher,
People "in the know" seriously doubt that this camera was that of Niépce.
It would be interesting to know what "People in the know" know exactly (Sorry for the pun!). To be a bit more serious and without any controversy, anybody can have his opinion, what happens if people "in the know" are wrong? They just miss a very very interesting camera... Just consider that this camera has been found 25 years ago at 4 km from the place where ALL THE NIEPCE's STUFF has been stored for more than a century. Consider that this very small camera has an optical specs proportionally similar (aperture, field coverage) to that of the large camera which shot the Austin University first heliography etc. etc.
All the best.
Pierre-Jean

jp80874
10-09-2007, 01:19 PM
Hello Christopher,
People "in the know" seriously doubt that this camera was that of Niépce.
It would be interesting to know what "People in the know" know exactly (Sorry for the pun!). To be a bit more serious and without any controversy, anybody can have his opinion, what happens if people "in the know" are wrong? They just miss a very very interesting camera... Just consider that this camera has been found 25 years ago at 4 km from the place where ALL THE NIEPCE's STUFF has been stored for more than a century. Consider that this very small camera has an optical specs proportionally similar (aperture, field coverage) to that of the large camera which shot the Austin University first heliography etc. etc.
All the best.
Pierre-Jean

Pierre-Jean,

Welcome to APUG. This being a rather strongly worded first post, may we ask if you are in anyway connected to the camera or auction?

John Powers

Samuel Hotton
10-13-2007, 08:51 PM
Well folks, the Niepce camera sold today for 42,000 Euros / $59,505.60.
Real or hoax? Who knows, of course someone knows. In either case, there were two bidders that made 27 bids in a two minute time frame that were convinced it was worth having. I hope it went to a good home!
In case anyone is interested, the design of the two element lens appears to be very similar to the Rodenstock Imagon.
All the best,
Sam

Dan Fromm
10-14-2007, 03:37 PM
In support of Chris' Nisperos' report, from the horse's mouth, as it were: http://www.niepce.com/pages/appareil.html

For those of you who don't read french, the key points are:

Auction Team Koln provided none of the documentation promised.

There's no evidence that Niepce used such a camera or lens.

Alternative explanations for it exist and haven't been ruled out.

Christopher Nisperos
10-14-2007, 07:55 PM
Hello Christopher,
People "in the know" seriously doubt that this camera was that of Niépce.
It would be interesting to know what "People in the know" know exactly (Sorry for the pun!). To be a bit more serious and without any controversy, anybody can have his opinion, what happens if people "in the know" are wrong? They just miss a very very interesting camera... Just consider that this camera has been found 25 years ago at 4 km from the place where ALL THE NIEPCE's STUFF has been stored for more than a century. Consider that this very small camera has an optical specs proportionally similar (aperture, field coverage) to that of the large camera which shot the Austin University first heliography etc. etc.
All the best.
Pierre-Jean

Pierre-Jean le plus cher,

Dans mon post j'ai donner le lien pour le website donc tu est libre de les contacter et leur dire tes sentiments les plus profonds. Entre-temps, o! get off my back, dude! En ce qui concerne l'appareil, —vraiment— je m'en fiche si c'est authentique ou pas. Qu'est-ce que j'en ai à faire? J'ai une information, je la transmets. C'est tout. Si c'est ton habitude d'acheter des antiquités cheres et au prix fort sur simple déduction et sans une recherche aprofondie, c'est ton affaire. Mais faut pas critiquer tous ceux qui ont d'autres habitudes . . . n'est-ce pas?

En tous cas, si tu est en France, tu est bienvenu de me contacter pour un verre (ton invitation ..).(OK.. le deuxième verre c'est pour moi!).

Excuse my (bad) French. Welcome to APUG. You're not in Kansas anymore (mais peut-etre Bruères-Allichamps?) It's pretty friendly here, but if you come in swinging, keep your dukes up . . . this ain't no square dance! (< de l'humour!)

Amicalement,

Christopher

. . . . . . . . .

Christopher Nisperos
10-14-2007, 08:19 PM
...having said that, a sodden thought creeps into my head. What if my contact for information (that the authenticity of the camera was doubtful) was actually bidding on the thing? Hmm. Intriguing.

Nawww. I've been watching too many spy movies. Still, I'd be curious to know who bought it. Anybody know?

Best,

Christopher

......

Samuel Hotton
10-15-2007, 01:20 AM
In support of Chris' Nisperos' report, from the horse's mouth, as it were: http://www.niepce.com/pages/appareil.html

For those of you who don't read french, the key points are:

Auction Team Koln provided none of the documentation promised.

There's no evidence that Niepce used such a camera or lens.

Alternative explanations for it exist and haven't been ruled out.

HERE IS THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION.
Text put online on www.niepce.com on October 10th, 2007.

Thoughts on the Auction of a Camera Obscura Attributed to Niépce


On 13 October 2007, the Auction Team Köln in Cologne plans to sell on auction a camera obscura (item nr 452) entitled “Original Camera of Nicéphore Niépce’s, before 1825“. So as to react to the numerous inquiries we receive concerning the authenticity of this attribution, we have decided to reply with the following statement:

To begin with, we have to say that we haven’t received any of the “numerous scientific expertises” and none of the “reports by renown experts and institutions”, which are proposed on request in the catalogue and the website of the Auction Team Köln. The only document we received is a summary by M. Bickart (Auction Team Köln, France). It is thus very regrettable that no expert agreed to write an analysis of this camera in his field of competence.

We are thus not talking about an expertise of renown, confirming the attribution of this camera to Nicéphore Niépce, but an assessment by the Auction Team Köln itself, which draws on a line of argumentation that fails to clearly attribute the camera to the inventor of photography.

For us, it seems that there are too many incompatibilities with what we know on Niépce’s research, for example as regards the format of the camera, the size of the images, the use of frosted glass, etc. To this, we must add the absence of any mention of the camera and the lense in Niépce’s (otherwise highly comprehensive) letters. In addition, it is extremely difficult – even impossible – to include this lense in the chronology of the evolution of Niépce’s research, whether before or after 1825. All these elements confirm our doubts regarding its authenticity.

At present, and to the extent of our current knowledge, it is thus impossible for us to certify that this camera could have ever belonged to Niépce.
Furthermore, we regret that other (highly promising) possibilities to attribute this camera have not been further explored:

These include Claude Felix Abel Niépce de Saint-Victor, the inventor of photography on glass, who was from St Cyr, a small village next to Niépce’s. Or Fortuné Joseph Petiot-Groffier (1788-1855), a photography pioneer living near Chalon sur Saône. Invoices show that as early as 1840, he ordered his own camera obscura, lenses and other photographic material from Vincent Chevalier, at the time when this optician was trying to perfect Daguerre’s camera, by reducing the size of the images to shorten exposure time.

Burgundy indeed abounds in photography pioneers, who have followed the steps of its glorious inventor.


At Gras, the Nicéphore Niépce House, on October 7th, 2007.
Jean-Louis Marignier and Pierre-Yves Mahé

All the best,
Sam H.

Bickart
10-20-2007, 04:22 PM
Pierre-Jean le plus cher,

Dans mon post j'ai donner le lien pour le website donc tu est libre de les contacter et leur dire tes sentiments les plus profonds. Entre-temps, o! get off my back, dude! En ce qui concerne l'appareil, —vraiment— je m'en fiche si c'est authentique ou pas. Qu'est-ce que j'en ai à faire? J'ai une information, je la transmets. C'est tout. Si c'est ton habitude d'acheter des antiquités cheres et au prix fort sur simple déduction et sans une recherche aprofondie, c'est ton affaire. Mais faut pas critiquer tous ceux qui ont d'autres habitudes . . . n'est-ce pas?

En tous cas, si tu est en France, tu est bienvenu de me contacter pour un verre (ton invitation ..).(OK.. le deuxième verre c'est pour moi!).

Excuse my (bad) French. Welcome to APUG. You're not in Kansas anymore (mais peut-etre Bruères-Allichamps?) It's pretty friendly here, but if you come in swinging, keep your dukes up . . . this ain't no square dance! (< de l'humour!)

Amicalement,

Christopher

. . . . . . . . .
Bonsoir Christopher,
Désolé pour cette réponse tardive, j'avais perdu mon mot de passe et je viens de le retrouver!
Bien sur, le premier verre sera pour moi...
Je ne suis pas neutre dans cette vente, j'ai travaillé depuis pas mal de temps sur cette petite chambre à la demande d'Auction Team Köln qui a fait la vente Samedi dernier et j'ai reçu beaucoup d'aide d'excellents amis et spécialistes.
Je ne suis pas expert mais je connais un peu l'histoire de cette chambre. J'en ai d'ailleurs parlé avec "the people in the know" il ya deux ans et ni "eux" ni moi ne pouvions imaginer ce que nous avons appris en deux ou trois ans.
I am sorry Christopher, I do not know how to behave on a forum. I just have a 17 pages text and pictures describing this small box and what we think to be its "story". I do not have your email address. Please tell me how to send you this text, just for your information, NO PUBLICITY.
All the best.

Pierre-Jean

Bickart
10-20-2007, 05:12 PM
Pierre-Jean,

Welcome to APUG. This being a rather strongly worded first post, may we ask if you are in anyway connected to the camera or auction?

John Powers

Hi John,
As I told Christopher, I had lost my password and I found it one hour ago... thus this late answer!
You are perfectly right, I am connected to Auction Team Köln and with the help of many collectors friends and specialists as well as with the books written by "the people in the know" about Nicephore Niépce, we have found, in more than two years, a lot of interesting facts and details. I presume that this forum is not the right place to insert a 17 pages pdf file but if you are interested in our analysis please let me know where I can post this file written in French, or in English (sorry, "my" French English ) or in Spanish.
With my best regards.
Pierre-Jean