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2F/2F
09-09-2008, 11:11 PM
Ah, the good-ol' I.G. Farben days.....

I know it is about 20 years after the fact, but there is anything that might still be applicable to your search to be found in a 1961 Photo Lab Index, let me know, and I will transcribe it for you.

Photo Engineer
09-10-2008, 08:52 AM
Actually, in answer to the formulas, Kodak engineers were pretty removed from these reports and the formulas were also very similar to Kodak formulas from about 10 - 20 years earlier. Kodak had advanced quite far from the materials and processes disclosed by Agfa. The advantage here went mainly to the Soviet block of nations who had virtually no photo industry at the time. At the time of transcription, Kodak was about 10 - 20 years ahead of Agfa, mainly due to the war which actually seems to have slowed some Agfa R&D.

The only advance made from these formulas noted by Kodak was the use of gold sensitization which gave one more stop in speed from a given emulsion. Other than that, Kodak was using advanced sulfur sensitizations with timed additions and the extrusion hopper coating system.

Kodak was using the oxidized gelatin in the 40s while Agfa formulas still used 3 - 4 grades of active gelatin. This is not seen in Ian's formulas above, so I did some research...

Brovira Extra Hard = Gelatine mittelreifend
Brovira Hard = Gelatine mittelreifend
Brovira Normal = Gelatine mittelreifend
Brovira Special = Gelatine kraeftigreifend + Gelatine schwerreifend + Gelatine mittelreifend
Brovira Weich = Gelatin kraeftigreifend + Gelatine schwerreifend

A German - English dictionary will tell you that Reifend = Bloom, and you may wish to equate this with Bloom Index used today to classify viscosity and strength in gelatin, but these terms are not related.

My Brovira formulas also include a spectral sensitizing dye (hier ist unbekannt - unknown at the plant) and an organic stabilzer added to the emulsion just prior to the coating operation.

So, there are wide variations in just the Brovira formulas themselves.

PE

AgX
09-10-2008, 02:00 PM
PE, I doubt that "nations who had virtually no photo industry" as you put it, would gain that much from those reports as nations with an existant industry would have.

In the war time R&D went on. So far as literature looking back on that issue is concerned it seems that the gravity of work was done on colour those years.

By the way, in 1943 Kodak Eastman and IG Farben settled a patent issue, finally giving way for Agfacolor patents.
Business as usual...

Photo Engineer
09-10-2008, 02:15 PM
In 1943, AFAIK, there was no business in the US conducted with Germany. IG Farben was kaput here. :D These companies subsidiaries in the US were nationalized and US subsidiaries over in Europe were nationalized by the Germans in their march across Europe. So, it cannot be said that technology moved one way. The Agfa scientists had all Kodak formulas taken from captured Kodak documents in Europe. People fail to point that out in the face of the FIAT reports, but it is a fact. In fact, in the face of the Kodak inactive gelatin work going back more than 10 years before 1940, it is surprising that Agfa still used active gelatins. Again, probably lack of R&D capability.

The fact that Lupex is almost identical to Azo and that Brovira is almost identical to Kodabromide is not a coincidence.

OTOH, Agfa R&D slowed almost to a halt due to bombing of plants and this is discussed in the FIAT reports BTW. Kodak R&D continued at a very high pace for IR films, UV films and for fine grain, high speed recon films for the US. Color was in high demand. Therefore at that time, Kodak was in production of Kodachrome film and an evolving variety of Kodacolor films and print materials.

Agfa made color materials that used the Fischer couplers, known for years, and used Brovira emulsions in their papers. Film emulsions for color were B&W emulsions. Kodak developed an entire new technology under Hanson and Vittum.

Konishiroku and Fuji used Agfa technology in direct technology exchanges to make their products and reverse engineered their Kodakcrhome products during the war. They both gradually converted to Kodak technology in the 60s.

PE

Ian Grant
09-10-2008, 02:20 PM
It's quite probable that the F.I.A.T. reports didn't contain the most up to date Agfa emulsion information of the time. If Leica could mothball & hide the development work for the Leica IV camera, (which later became the M series), from the Nazi's and later the British & Russians then it would be very simple for Agfa to give the engineers what they thought they wanted.

Ian

AgX
09-10-2008, 02:33 PM
In 1943, AFAIK, there was no business in the US conducted with Germany. IG Farben was kaput here

I have to correct myself.: It was not Eastman Kodak, but Kodak AG. But as they most probably were dependant on the mother company I doubt that this settling was a true German affair.

Yes, you are right: That issue of Agfa gaining access to Kodak knowledge is not yet looked at.

Photo Engineer
09-10-2008, 02:48 PM
IG Farben vs Kodak AG would have been an internal affair in Germany with a German company and a nationalized former US division. Kodak US would have taken no part in it. In the US a similar situation existed between Agfa Ansco (later Ansco then GAF) which was nationalized by the US government. The factory was in Binghamton. All German nationals that wished, were allowed to return home to Germany. Some chose to stay in the US.

Ian;

Yes, you are perhaps right, but what else do we have to go on but these formulas and the fact that they did "match" what was being sold right up to the date of capture. The synthetic chemistry and coating were there at the plant in-use at that time and that is indicative of some truth to the matters reported. The coatings matched the formulas and the stock of chemicals matched the throughput. These data are in one of the reports.

In fact, the FIAT reports also contain data from other companies such as Perutz and these formulas and the coating equipment are similar to that found in the Agfa plant.

So, no doubt that things could be hidden, but a coating machine and loads of emulsion being worked up and coated is kinda hard to hide. The chemical plants were there, and the only think hidden was the purpose of one tank car of chemicals that no one would talk about. We never found out what the use was of its contents.

Also, we never saw the Wolfen plant. That was in the hands of the Soviets.

PE

Ian Grant
09-10-2008, 02:50 PM
Presumably Agfa also gained knowledge from Gevaert, and Lumiere, plus a few other long lost photo-companies in occupied Europe.

Ian

Photo Engineer
09-10-2008, 03:25 PM
Yes, probably, but maybe not Lumiere. IDK. The probable loss of Kodak information is what has been sorely ignored, but looks obvious to me looking at the formulas.

The fact that Kodak pretty much dismissed Agfa technology except for the gold+sulfur indicates to me that they had a commanding lead by the end of the war.

PE

AgX
09-10-2008, 03:48 PM
PE,

to my understanding Kodak AG was not nationalized. But surely one could argue about any indirect connections to Rochester.

But for sure is that `the Americans´ were at Wolfen. The plant was under US-Army fire in April 1945 and then occupied by these troops. And in succession examined by US and British commisions. Soviet troops and comissions only came much later in July, when Soviet troops occupied that part of Germany as regulated in the Jalta Treaty long before.
When the US occupying troops retracted a lot of senior personnel of the filmplant went with them.

I assume those reports gained an importance in retrospective due to statements from without Agfa or Orwo.

The importance of those reports will diminish in the light of a statement by Dr. Wilhelm Schneider (Agfacolor), who stated to be approached by an US interrogation team in Switzerland still in 1946 for questioning on components but was afraid to cooperate due to his fear to be abducted by them.

Photo Engineer
09-10-2008, 04:05 PM
There are many stories about "events" transpiring over these formulas including a "missing FIAT report" that contains super secret film formulas. None of that ever proved to be true. It manly grew out of the events surrounding those people who refused to be interviewed, and therefore the interviews were supposedly secret and were withheld. That is, as you can show from your information, he was afraid to cooperate and there was no report.

However, on the other matter, holes in the existing FIAT reports refer to the data from Wolfen as being unknown at other Agfa plants. This has made the reports somewhat cryptic and has also fueled the "missing report" theory.

In fact, we don't know what the sensitzing dye for Brovira was. It was made at Wolfen and shipped to the plant where Brovira was made. Those making the Brovira did not know what the dye was.

This same secrecy pertains at Kodak where I know a number, concentration and solvent for a dye, but that is all. So, I would tell the dye lab that I was sensitzing a mole of 0.2 micron emulsion to the red region and they would give me a few candidates with numbers. I would pick one from the spectrum supplied and they would give me a flask full of dissolved dye to add to my emulsion. It worked!

PE

Ray Rogers
09-11-2008, 04:22 AM
There are many stories about "events" transpiring over these formulas including a "missing FIAT report" that contains super secret film formulas. None of that ever proved to be true. It manly grew out of the events surrounding those people who refused to be interviewed, and therefore the interviews were supposedly secret and were withheld. That is, as you can show from your information, he was afraid to cooperate and there was no report.

PE
Your story sems to say we protected these people; that may be true but
I got the impression they were pressured and or "physically" encouraged...
the reports are vague in this respect.



These companies subsidiaries in the US were nationalized and US subsidiaries over in Europe were nationalized by the Germans in their march across Europe. So, it cannot be said that technology moved one way. The Agfa scientists had all Kodak formulas taken from captured Kodak documents in Europe. People fail to point that out in the face of the FIAT reports, but it is a fact.PE

Which plant(s) do you have in mind?


In fact, in the face of the Kodak inactive gelatin work going back more than 10 years before 1940, it is surprising that Agfa still used active gelatins.PE

Not really.
At the end of the day, little real advantage was seen to be gained, and so it does not suprise me they did not switch over immediately.


Again, probably lack of R&D capability.

That is a pretty low blow. Nobody is de·ny·ing Kodak's strength in research, but to characterize Agfa's ability as lacking capability is out of tune with the world as we know it.

I should point out that Kodak might even seem to lack capability
if you consider that it knew about gold sensitization much earlier than is usually acknowledged, but could not tame the reaction.

That one stop or so in speed had Kodak working 24/7 trying to catch up with Agfa,
much to the stress of Kodak researchers.


The fact that Lupex is almost identical to Azo and that Brovira is almost identical to Kodabromide is not a coincidence.PE

What do you mean by "identical"?
True, They were both positive emulsions, for making photographic paper.

Was Kodabromide was an ammonical emulsion?
Was Kodabromide a washed emulsion ?

I am curious if anyone knows what year Kodabromide first appeared.


In fact, we don't know what the sensitzing dye for Brovira was.
To the best of your knowledge, Kodak never found that piece of information?

I am pretty sure I know where it is... I have uncovered the huge file it where it is probably sleeping, but it is so huge and disorderly that it will take a some time to examine fully. Transportation to the file site costs about 150 USD.

If any one wants me to look, I will send them my pay pal account information! :D

Humm... that said, if anyone wants to do some research on this or similar files but has other obligations, I could do this work for them by proxy....
;)

Kirk Keyes
09-11-2008, 11:09 AM
I have uncovered the huge file it where it is probably sleeping, but it is so huge and disorderly that it will take a some time to examine fully. Transportation to the file site costs about 150 USD.

Ray - more details here. WHat do you mean by the last sentence?

Ray Rogers
09-11-2008, 06:01 PM
Ray - more details here. WHat do you mean by the last sentence?

It's pretty much what it says. The information is not on line. Transportation, also known as travel costs, are incurred each time I want to investigate.

I have to physically go to the data.

The only thing that keeps me from (probably) finding those details (if they exist-and I think it is very likely they do) is money, and prioritization factors.

Once on site, the only costs are minimal (room and board) for as long as it takes.

Ray

Kirk Keyes
09-11-2008, 06:24 PM
So where is it - perhaps one of use will be nearby to check it out?

Ray Rogers
09-11-2008, 07:56 PM
So where is it - perhaps one of use will be nearby to check it out?

Ron and others have already listed several.
I DO have a spreadsheet that aims to organize all this information, world wide, into a single referance source... it is still a work in progress.

Ray

Kirk Keyes
09-11-2008, 10:45 PM
OK - whatever...

Ray Rogers
09-12-2008, 12:59 AM
OK - whatever...

I feel a sense of irritation...

Please understand that I have invested two 5000 mile trips, a month of room and board, several shorter trips (8 hours by car) and a LOT of frustration to track down some of the material... much of which is now, not only very outdated... but also of very limited usefulness, as Ron has repeatedly said. I did it because it was the only way I had at that time to learn. I continue because I am not a very bright cookie AND I am very Obsessive/Compulsive.

If you want me to locate a site that is close to you, I can try. What is the maximum distance you are willing to travel?

At this point my data does not include your state, but that does not mean you are not close to a repository. I have just never had any reason to look there. Finding a place that has these reports is only the first step of many obstacles!

The Spreadsheet I am working on should prove useful, but if the goal is to make a guide to the reports as a whole, that will never be an easy task.

In many ways the most desirable information has already been published here on APUG, in one form or another. More is sure to come.

So Kirk, please don't be sour!

Do you want to go to the exact same place I do?
Fine. Visit me.
I will take you there.

Ray

Ray Rogers
09-12-2008, 01:05 AM
- whatever...

The power of a single, well placed word will never cease to amaze me!

Kirk Keyes
09-12-2008, 11:20 AM
Well, Ray, where exactly are you? You don't even have a location listed for your member info. I'd love to go with you. You know where I am.