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Kirk Keyes
09-12-2008, 11:25 AM
The power of a single, well placed word will never cease to amaze me!

Are we here to share, or to obfuscate?

Sorry, I could not do that with just one word.

Ray Rogers
09-12-2008, 09:19 PM
Are we here to share, or to obfuscate?

Sorry, I could not do that with just one word.

Grayscale

Ray Rogers
09-12-2008, 10:32 PM
Are we here to share, or to obfuscate?



Kirk,

Maybe I misunderstood your question.

"So where is it - perhaps one of use will be nearby to check it out?"

What is it you want to know?

My only experience with this word is from click and clack... (NPR's Car Talk) so I looked it up and if I obfuscated*, please point it out and I will deal with it.

"Obfuscation is the concealment of meaning in communication, making it confusing and harder to interpret." *(ala wiki)

I do not belive I did this.

I thought your question pretty strange since we are on opposite sides of the earth.

Maybe this has something to do with the confusion?

Or did I really obfuscate?

Ray

Ray Rogers
09-12-2008, 10:35 PM
Well, Ray, where exactly are you? You don't even have a location listed for your member info. I'd love to go with you. You know where I am.

I am in Asia now.
I will take a look at the member info... but not being Asian, I may not feel comfortable saying I am from Asia....

Ray

AgX
09-14-2008, 11:37 AM
Gold-Effect:

Later Koslowsky stated that Agfa had only been ahead of Kodak for about two years, by means of his gold-effect.

Kodak seem to have kept pace by their use of gold as chemical sensitizer. As in the 1939 Kodak Super XX, thus three years after the secret introduction of goldsensitation at Agfa, gold was found. (However, it is not stated whether that Kodak gold was found by Agfa in 1939 or later.) Kodak is said to have patented their own gold-effect in ’41.

But based on a use of 1,2 micromol gold per m˛ film by Agfa, I wonder how many area-units of Kodak emulsion Agfa had to dissolve in order to find out about Kodak using gold.

Photo Engineer
09-14-2008, 06:42 PM
Your story sems to say we protected these people; that may be true but
I got the impression they were pressured and or "physically" encouraged...
the reports are vague in this respect.

That is a pretty low blow. Nobody is de·ny·ing Kodak's strength in research, but to characterize Agfa's ability as lacking capability is out of tune with the world as we know it.

I should point out that Kodak might even seem to lack capability
if you consider that it knew about gold sensitization much earlier than is usually acknowledged, but could not tame the reaction.

That one stop or so in speed had Kodak working 24/7 trying to catch up with Agfa,
much to the stress of Kodak researchers.



What do you mean by "identical"?
True, They were both positive emulsions, for making photographic paper.

Was Kodabromide was an ammonical emulsion?
Was Kodabromide a washed emulsion ?

I am curious if anyone knows what year Kodabromide first appeared.


To the best of your knowledge, Kodak never found that piece of information?

I am pretty sure I know where it is... I have uncovered the huge file it where it is probably sleeping, but it is so huge and disorderly that it will take a some time to examine fully. Transportation to the file site costs about 150 USD.

If any one wants me to look, I will send them my pay pal account information! :D

Humm... that said, if anyone wants to do some research on this or similar files but has other obligations, I could do this work for them by proxy....
;)

Ray;

I started to edit your above into something usable, but it was too intercut with my comments to make it practical.

Basically, the FIAT reports state that the Agfa plant and R&D facilities had been subject to several years of heavy bombing (the same was true of the Konica plant in Hino due to proximity to the Hachioji steel works) and therefore the R&D and coating was as best as possible under very trying conditions. I think anyone could understand that! I need not explain more.

Data indicate that Agfa used at least 4 - 6 sensitizing dyes. One was Erythrosine, in their paper formulas, but the other was "unknown" and AFAIK, Kodak never followed up. I might add - why should they? They had many dyes of their own that worked well.

The Kodak R&D teams felt that Agfa had reduced gold sensitization to healthy functioning practice and Kodak learned a lot from it. I don't care to argue this. I know what was said by the engineers at KRL.

Kodabromide was an SRAD with Cadmium Nitrate at one point, but was revised to eliminate Cadmium by using a different formulation. I am using one more nearly like the second formula.

We did not protect anyone AFAIK, but then Kodak engineers were not there when the reports were written. When the war broke out, the US offered many Agfa and other Germans the opportunity to take asylum in the US. This included a number of extremely capable Jewish scientists and engineers who preferred to stay in the US. What can I say?

In regard to this, Arnold Weissberger, Asst Dir of R&D at EK, gave his son (and my office mate for a while) an autographed picture of many of the preeminent scientists at the Oxford conference in the late 30s. The photo was autographed by Einstein, Bohr, Weissberger, and a host of others. The Germans of Jewish faith were leaving the continent for England or the US. This is history.

PE

Ray Rogers
09-14-2008, 08:50 PM
Ray;

I started to edit your above into something usable, but it was too intercut with my comments to make it practical.
PE

Sorry.
--
I did not know about the damage to the Konica plant.. but I lived in Hachioji for a spell and used to ride my bicycle around the plant.
It was very frustrating having such a large source of knowledge and experience right in front of my nose and not being able to go inside!
--



Data indicate that Agfa used at least 4 - 6 sensitizing dyes. One was Erythrosine, in their paper formulas, but the other was "unknown" and AFAIK, Kodak never followed up. I might add - why should they? They had many dyes of their own that worked well.
PE

I agree with you! That is why my search for the key files is probably wastefull. It is just your repeated comment that they are unknown that suggested to me I should get off my butt and find them, since I do think I have identified the specfic report that includes the key to their ID. But as it costs money and there are probably better dyes avail. today, I am not in a big hurry to lose another 200 bucks!

BTW, If I recall, I had a lot of color retention with Erythrosine, and this prevented my using it to its fullest potential. Have you seen this in your own emulsions? Is their a cure?



The Kodak R&D teams felt that Agfa had reduced gold sensitization to healthy functioning practice and Kodak learned a lot from it. I don't care to argue this. I know what was said by the engineers at KRL.
PE

I would not argue this because its true. I agree.
AIUI, The main contribution of AGFA research was not necessiarily the concept of gold sensitization, but rather, its controll.



I am using one more nearly like the second formula.
PE

Do you know about when the change was made?
Are you talking about the 60-70s?

Ray

Photo Engineer
09-14-2008, 09:09 PM
Ray;

Kodak changed the Kodabromide formula in the 60 - 70 time frame due to Cadmium replacement.

Erythrosine can cause pink stain unless you know how to control it. There is a cure. :)

I think I said that Agfa scientists learned "control" so we don't disagree, but it seems that you think we do! Again :)

I have visited the Konica plant many many times and had some excellent meals with the research people from Konica at restaurants in Hachioji where I learned about KONISKI. If you don't know about this, you don't know about Japan. It was a dark time that did truly hold back R&D.

Ray, BTDT learned a lot. You have a lot of gaps in your lore and knowledge. I'm sorry, but this is not the time or place to fill in the gaps.

PE

Ray Rogers
09-14-2008, 10:36 PM
I think I said that Agfa scientists learned "control" so we don't disagree, but it seems that you think we do!
PE

Not at all!
Here, "I agree" means "We agree".
I simply clarified what it is we were agreeing on.
---

"KONISKI"?

Do you mean the sumo wrestler?

"Sumo Returns to Hawaii
June 6, 2007 9:59 AM
...Takmiyama was the 1st Hawaiian Sumo wrestler followed by KONISKI, Akebono and Musashimaru."

Actually, there is a catchy little song dedicated to the last 3 IIRC but I could not find it to post here.
---


You have a lot of gaps in your lore and knowledge. I'm sorry, but this is not the time or place to fill in the gaps.
PE

OUCH! That was down right cold of you Ron! Please edit it out while you still have that option.

Yes, of course you are correct.

I am not one of those Mr. Know-It-Alls you frequently have run-ins with here.
I admit I have many many holes in my knowledge.

But they are not due to a refusal to listen and learn.
If anything, I think my holes are due to the lack of having a good full time teacher or mentor.

This may not be the time nor place, but then one wonders,
If not here, then where?
If not now, then when?

You know of course, RITs 3 semester course on silver halide chemistry has been history for some time now.

It is not your fault that I have gaps and you are correct that they exist, but never the less, to make public comments on the gaps in my knowledge serves no purpose other than to step on, as RS put it, a lowly "cockroach".

I do not see how it benefits you, me or APUG.

In my honest opinion.

Ray

Photo Engineer
09-15-2008, 09:16 AM
Ray;

Koniski is common lore among Konica scientists and engineers and represents a low point in human life and misery. I suffered with them in my own way when I heard that story. It is there somewhere in Hachioji or known at the Hino plant. It shows too, how war slows or stops R&D.

As for learning, yes I know that the course at RIT is gone. Bruce Kahn, who is no longer there, used to teach it. There are some few courses taught there though by Rich Hailstone. There are also a few courses at Chiba you might look into. Mrs Kubo or Dr. Kubo might help you out. She is still teaching there AFAIK. Or, you could take my workshop or go to one of Denise Ross' get togethers. Again though, distance is your major problem.

What I said was not a "low blow", but rather a fact dictated by distance, resources and education. Your background is far different than say Kirk. This is no fault, we are each different and that is a fact, not a fault. So, please don't read into it what is not intended to be there.

BTW, if you have access to those Japanese records you allude to, you could post some of them.

PE

Kirk Keyes
09-15-2008, 12:53 PM
I am not one of those Mr. Know-It-Alls you frequently have run-ins with here.

Another Rocky and Bullwinkle reference to go with Mr. Peabody and his boy Sherman from last week. Can you tell I'm a big fan of that show?

"Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat..."

"Again??"

"Nothing up my sleeve - Presto!"

"ROAARRRRR"

"Must bu the wrong hat..."

Kirk Keyes
09-15-2008, 01:02 PM
Or, you could take my workshop or go to one of Denise Ross' get togethers.

HEY - that's one of Denise and Kirk's get togethers...

Anyway, Ray, you should write the Formulary and tell them you hope they'll offer Ron's calss next year. I'll be there too if it's offered, and if they need my assistance.

Photo Engineer
09-15-2008, 01:04 PM
Yes, Denise and Kirk's get togethers! Sorry Kirk.

PE

Ray Rogers
09-15-2008, 06:40 PM
Ron, although the temptation to return favor for your astute observation is strong, I will afford you greater respect than I was shown.

It is my belief that when one ceases to address the subject matter and chooses to comment on gaps in their conversation partner's knowledge... WITH NO INTENTION OF FILLING THOSE GAPS, I think that qualifies as (as you put it) a "low blow".

If you feel differently, alright, variety is what makes life unpredictable and keeps things interesting!

In any case, unlike others, I will not let this sort of petty squabble get out of hand and deterioate what could otherwise be a good relationship. In time I am sure we will all see things in a different light anyhow.

The primate in me would rather go away for a while than engage in non-productive tit for tat.

X-?

Initiating Stealth Mode Sequence

Photo Engineer
09-15-2008, 07:44 PM
Hmmm, interesting. I filled no gaps?

How about the list of sensitzing dyes and information on grain size as a function of S+X sensitization? Did I fill any gaps with that or with the chart of pAg vs crystal habit. I supplied the product numbers and source for two very good sensitizing dyes for Bill to try. I gave him instructions here and pointed him to additional info in the class notes.

I'm not sure exactly what you want from me. I did fill the gaps and explain the differences between the two varieties of Kodabromide that I knew about in answer to your specific question.

Before you go into stealth mode, please elucidate clearly what I have failed to provide you and I will give either a precise answer or the reasons why I am not able or willing to give it.

As for respect, you have every respect I can give in the face of the information you have provided here on the forum. Unfortunately, I know far more about Kirk and Denise and many others than I do you, in spite of having met you personally. So, I can only respond to what I know. My comments were not derogatory in any way as far as I can see. I merely pointed out some venues for further education to help you, but Bill is doing just fine and is at about the same level of chemistry as you are, I think. He is ready to crank out a pan emulsion. IDK where you are in this type of endeavor, as noted above.

I'm sorry if this dissapoints you or that you appear to have been hurt.

PE

Ray Rogers
09-16-2008, 12:24 AM
No problem.

I would really prefer not to bicker in public.

Everything is fine. I am not saying you failed to provide anything at all.
You have ocassionally posted some very interesting information. Thank you.

I think what I want most is to have a good relationship, and smooth sailing...
to feel good about myself, and those I talk to....

Measuring the number and size of a each others knowledge holes makes for rough water ahead.
Thats all.

Having been on the receiving end several times yourself, I think you know what it feels like.

X-