PDA

View Full Version : Film coating machine (homemade) on Flickr



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

Dark Orange
02-24-2008, 04:53 PM
It can be done without all of the couplers and colloid mill, but is going to require the unique processing chemistry.

Better make sure he dusts off his couplers and colloid mill then. ;)


And the design stages of the film are very intensive to get things right.

To quote Vin Diesel in the movie xXx "I live for this sh!t". (Well, not me, but him - ah stuffit, you know what I mean)



you need a very particular dye for the cyan layer that will not wash out until the silver is bleached away.

That dye is not that difficult to acquire, but to quote the builder... "There are more methods of skinning cats".

I will see if I can get some photos of his preparation gear today or tomorrow.

Photo Engineer
02-24-2008, 06:22 PM
Please look at US patent # 3,658, 525 which is the process patent for the current Kodachrome (with a few tweaks in the final release). This patent has been abandoned since Fuji and Konica no longer produce Kodachrome type films.

I also have a source for the red sensitizing dye which forms a "J" aggregate of high staying power on the cyan layer emulsion. In fact, I have 900 mg of it left from my own emulsion work.

I don't want you to skin any cats. It would be so inhumane. :D

PE

Dark Orange
02-25-2008, 01:04 AM
I suspect it is the cat skinning he is interested in rather than the end product.

Emulsion
03-01-2008, 03:05 PM
Dark Orange,

Have you had any luck taking additional photos? I'm very interested in the reaction vessels/kettles and lab gear.

Thanks from,
Emulsion.

Dark Orange
03-01-2008, 05:56 PM
My apologies, I have been called away for work and won't be back for a few weeks.

The builder would prefer his preparation equipment to be shown when it is all completed, so it can be seen as a process rather than as disjointed items.

I will keep you posted.

Ken Nadvornick
03-01-2008, 11:49 PM
FWIW, this has got to be one of the most facinating threads I have followed on any photo-related forum anywhere. There is so much going on here that (intentionally) doesn't meet the eye that I could probably poke out both of mine with a red-hot iron and be none the worse for it...

Ken

Paul Verizzo
07-05-2008, 10:39 PM
In the Flickr shots, don't you mention that the mysterious builder is your father?

Incredible work and obviously lots of time.

I guess I'll return the paint brush to the hardware store........

Paul Verizzo
07-05-2008, 10:46 PM
I received a message today from the actual sales rep from the company that makes triacetate film base. They only make the triacetate in 'master roll' sizes -- about 45 inches wide, by 1,850 meters long, by 4.6 mils. I would have to buy 6 master rolls so that comes out to about 6.6 miles. I was under the impression from the initial contact that they sold cut sizes of triacetate. Not so. This is probably more film base than we could use in two lifetimes on such a small scale.

They did suggest other places to look, so I have some more work to do on Monday.

Dark orange, do you know where the machine builder got his base material from?

Thanks,

Bob M.

Ask for a sample. I used to get all kinds of goodies that way. Some companies are really generous with said samples. Be ready for an explanation to the sales department.

phenix
07-06-2008, 12:48 AM
Photo Engineer, this message is addressed to you.

Several months ago, I wrote here that the film market had changed, and if most pros already made the move to digital, the film market relies today only on amateurs, advanced or beginners, but mostly amateurs. I also pretended that for this market the price of a 35mm or 120 size roll of film shouldn’t exceed $2(US). You laugh about this assertion, and I left you with your nostalgia of big is better.

What I wanted to claim in that thread, and I didn’t because of your stereotyped comments, was that for this new market the industry should change, and coating machines shouldn’t exceed a minilab size. They also shouldn’t be managed by CEO and shareholders, but by single people or at most a family, just like in the case of a minilab. Now I have remorse not to have written this idea/vision in that old trade, but believe me, I thought it! Now, here is its confirmation: a coating machine the size of a minilab. This is the future of film: I dream of going to the closest minilab to buy films and papers made on site, instead of going to get developed my films, as used until recently. And I hope this dream will become through: the sooner the better.

I do not post this comment to start a contradictory discussion with you, nor to have the last word. All I want/hope is you to recognize you was trapped by old visions, and as an influential member of this site to support such new ideas and performances. PE, there isn’t any way back to the ‘60s, ‘70s, or ‘80s, but there is a way forward for film. Please see it, and support it! Thanks.

Alex Bishop-Thorpe
07-06-2008, 03:38 AM
Personally I don't like the quality of most minilabs developing my film, much less coating it...not that I wouldn't like to see a trained emulsion chemist in every minilab, but so long as photography requires consistency I don't like the idea of my HP5+ being coated in my local lab next to the grocery store.
I'd just like to chime in and say this is an incredible project though, and I had a pang of national pride to see the familiar Pura brand milk in your fridge next to the emulsion. 5 generations of dairy farmer will do that to you, but please keep us posted while we dream.

Photo Engineer
07-06-2008, 08:50 AM
Dear all;

Let us say that you build a narrow coating machine from scratch such as depicted in the OP. It would run you about $10,000, as a guess. Now, turn it on and coat and you get - nothing but a mess. Why? It takes knowledge, so you go to someone who can make emulsions and coat for you (and this may require 2 people, one for each task) and he (they) charge(s) $200 / hour to coat things and you have to buy $5000 worth of chemicals and gelatin. Why? It takes years to learn how to do these things and then at least a year bringing the machine to life using test coatings and this costs a lot of money for silver nitrate and other chemicals again.

And, of course, you have to buy a roll of film support, and you can't just get one. You also need finishing and packing to be done by you or for you.

In the end, this custom film is going to cost a lot of money and I am not being sterotyped or disdainful of your comments it is simply that most of you do not understand the difficulty of doing it. Now, if on the other hand you think I am wrong and it will not cost much or be hard, I simply challenge you to do it or find someone who will do it for you in the price range you predict.

PE

David A. Goldfarb
07-06-2008, 11:09 AM
And as I recall, didn't the rollers in the machine come from a decommissioned Kodak research machine, solving one significant design issue?

Photo Engineer
07-06-2008, 11:48 AM
They may have, IDK. The design is simple enough as long as you have the money to pay for their manufacture. But yes, a decommissioned Kodak machine could supply much of that equipment. The coating hopper is based on the small research machine I used and the overall design looks just like our SC4 (Sample Coater #4) machine in B-59 at Kodak. The only difference is that the machine depicted is a loop machine but the Kodak machine was point to point.

PE

dwross
07-06-2008, 12:05 PM
I've spent the last five minutes trying to think of all the aphorisms, metaphors, banalities and profundities I can think of to go along with this 'just-for-fun' link. I'll suffice to say never underestimate ingenuity and love of craft.

http://www.instructables.com/forum/Wow.--Make-your-own-vacuum-tube/

David A. Goldfarb
07-06-2008, 12:27 PM
I've spent the last five minutes trying to think of all the aphorisms, metaphors, banalities and profundities I can think of to go along with this 'just-for-fun' link. I'll suffice to say never underestimate ingenuity and love of craft.

http://www.instructables.com/forum/Wow.--Make-your-own-vacuum-tube/

That's brilliant, Denise.

Photo Engineer
07-06-2008, 12:29 PM
Denise;

Did you notice the use of some very specialized equipment and techniques? How much do you think one of those handmade vacuum tubes would cost? How much would buying all of the equipment cost? That spot welder is going to cost a bit and learning glassblowing is not trivial. I took a course in graduate school.

PE

sanking
07-06-2008, 12:41 PM
In the end, this custom film is going to cost a lot of money and I am not being sterotyped or disdainful of your comments it is simply that most of you do not understand the difficulty of doing it. Now, if on the other hand you think I am wrong and it will not cost much or be hard, I simply challenge you to do it or find someone who will do it for you in the price range you predict.

PE

I agree with PE in that the use of a coating machine is a very complicated matter that is as much art an intuition as science. I recently spent a few days trying to coat carbon tissue with a coating machine that has a known history of use in a parallel application. My experience with the machine convininced me that it would eventually work but would requires dozens of itermations to get it right. In the end I decided that the method of coating carbon tissue I have described at various sites, which does not involve a machine, works just as well, if not better.

Sandy King

dwross
07-06-2008, 12:44 PM
Ron,

No one is saying cheap or easy. We're saying 'love of craft' - again, you may tend to underestimate the power of that in some people.

Also, don't underestimate the winds of change. We may be on the brink of a return to the craftsperson-driven cottage industry. Increasingly, corporations are leaving both their customers and their employees high and dry. Entrepreneurialship and self-employment with a more local twist may be an attractive alternative to a lot of people, even if (and maybe especially if) the entry is a challenge.

My two cents,
d

David A. Goldfarb
07-06-2008, 12:46 PM
How much do you think one of those handmade vacuum tubes would cost?

Certainly more than new tubes made in Russia, China, or Yugoslavia, but possibly less than new-old-stock American and German tubes. Prices can be found at--

http://thetubestore.com/

http://tubedepot.com/index.html

Here are some of the rare ones--

http://tubedepot.com/ranosautu.html

I learned this while stocking up on replacement tubes for our Hammond organ.

Aurum
07-06-2008, 01:06 PM
I've seen that Video before from a link on the Glowbugs mailing list (Amateur Radio list specialising in Valve (Vacuum tube) technology)

The guy has a webpage that goes into a lot more detail than just the video. The man is a true craftsman in all senses of the word.

The valves he is recreating are not typically commercially available either as N.O.S. or Chinese or Russian copies. Those types of valves are typically the ones from the second world war onwards when the electronics industry really took off.

He is recreating stuff for equipment from the turn of the last century, for the really early radios that emerged before the first world war, and were superceded in the early 30's

Like PE I've also done glassblowing as part of Graduate chemistry training.
I'm just about adequate. When I worked in the Pharma industry we had a glassblower on site, repairing equipment and fabricating custom stuff. Thats an art all to itself, and one I call myself fortunate to have seen in action