Ilford Multigrade & Selenium

[Renato Tonelli]

I have been trying to selenium tone Ilford Multigrade fiber without success. Several threads here suggest that this is not a good combination. I'm not looking for a substantial color shift, just better d-max.
Has anyone experimented with different developers and/or selenium toners with this paper? Thanks for the suggestions.

[Andrew O'Neill]

I tone Ilford MG fibre in KRST 1+9 (diluted with water) for 6 minutes @ 24 degrees Celcius. Ever so slightly shift of tone to the cooler side with an increase of Dmax of about .10.
I found that if you don't give this paper a really good rinse in water after fixing, and then a thorough clearing in a hypo clearing bath, the paper stained in the selenium toner.

[blaze-on]

Works well for me at 1:20 (KRST) 6-8 minutes, depending on color shift I want..
I wash after dev/fix then second fix and straight into Selenium, then HCA, then final wash.

[PVia]

Matt...how much color shift do you get with that time and dilution?

I've gone to using 1:5 for 12 minutes at 75-80 degrees and it barely budges. I'm mixing the Selenium with water, although someone told me I would get more change if I mixed with HCA, but I'm not sure about that...?

Also, I go to selenium after fixing and then holding in a water bath until the printing session is over.

[BobNewYork]

Multigrade doesn't tone strongly in selenium. Never has. The selenium does, however, eliminate that warm 'greenish' hue that the untoned print exhibits. There is a definite strengthening of the image but not the shift that other papers exhibit. I've found no difference between dilution with HCA or water. I use it for archival purposes and it serves that purpose - presumably! Some of the old Forte papers toned very strongly to a definite rust-red if you let it.

FWIW I dilute Kodak rapid-selenium 1:15 and tone for 15 minutes. Follow with a 5 min rinse, HCA then the final wash. Been doing that for years and frankly I'm not even sure where I got that dil. / time from. But it seems to work for me.

[Ian Grant]

Depends on the type of Multigrade, normal multigrade will hardly be affected by Selenium toner. It will build up density but with no apprecible colour shift.

Multigrade Warm-tone will tone well in Selenium

Ian

[pentaxuser]

.

Multigrade Warm-tone will tone well in Selenium

Ian

Ian does this include Warmtone RC? Thanks

pentaxuser

[snallan]

What dilution of toner, and for how long had you been toning the prints?

In his book on toning, Tim Rudman included a graph from work done by Maco (producers of LP Selenia toner), showing that Dmax initially increases during toning, but after 5 - 6 minutes, Dmax decreases on further toning. The graph shown was for a dilution of 1+19.

[BobNewYork]

I hadn't seen Tim Rudman's expose. I really haven't noticed a decrease in shadow densities with 15 minutes but, unfortunately, now I'm going to be looking for it. What I do see with Multigrade, ot most papers for that matter, is that a point beyond 10 minutes the image seems to 'pop'. I can't describe it in words, (which is why a picture's worth a thousand of 'em!) but the image appears suddenly to achieve an enhanced presence and realism. Ian is absolutely right, (like he needs ME to tell him that!:p) when he says that MG Warmtone reacts noticeably to selenium. The tones are beautiful, almost light sepia with this paper which is perfect for certain images.

[Ian Grant]

Pentaxuser, any warm-tone paper responds to selenium tone RC or FB

Ian

[snallan]

Hi Bob. The Dmax decrease is from the maximum acheived during the toning. The graph from Maco runs out to 12 minutes, and at that time is still showing a slight increase in Dmax, but around 1/3 - 1/2 that acheived at maximum increase.

One point. The LP Selenia toner produced by Maco, is said to contain 3% sodium selenite, where others usually contain around 2%. As they always say - do what works for you :). I brought it up here in case Renato had been toning for extended times, and taking the Dmax of the prints back down close to their original value.

[BobNewYork]

Steve: Appreciate it. That's why I love this site. There's always someone has additional information which can be useful. I have to say it never even dawned on me that selenium toner could EVER reduce density! Strangely enough, since that recent thread on film testing that got a little terse and constipated I've been thinking a lot about the systems and procedures we "evolve" for our work and how much of it is based upon what we KNOW and how much is based upon what we ASSUME. This is definitely a case in point and it's sites like this which help.

Have to say too, that if I really did what works for me - the wife'd kick me out!!!!!

[Ole]

Selenium toner starts "reducing density" at the point where the colour starts changing from black to brown. Since warm shadows reflect more light than neutral shadows, a densitometer shows it as a reduced Dmax.

Which IMO says a little about the relevance of densitometry to print assessment...

[snallan]

Have to say too, that if I really did what works for me - the wife'd kick me out!!!!!

Now. Ain't that the truth :D


Selenium toner starts "reducing density" at the point where the colour starts changing from black to brown. Since warm shadows reflect more light than neutral shadows, a densitometer shows it as a reduced Dmax.

Which IMO says a little about the relevance of densitometry to print assessment...

Good point.

[pentaxuser]

Pentaxuser, any warm-tone paper responds to selenium tone RC or FB

Ian

Many thanks. I still have some Warmtone RC from the Ilford visit in 2006. It's time I tried it and maybe had a go with selenium as well.

pentaxuser

[MarkL]

Doesn't one of Tim Rudman's books mention a chemical bath or bleach that allows Multigrade to selenium tone? Or you could go with a selenium sulfide (T-56) toner which will tone anything since you bleach the image off and redevelop it.

Hope this helps.
Mark

[Dietmar Wolf]

I have a question related to the last post.

Isnt it possible to bleach the print before bathing in the selenium toner? Do I have to bleach the print entirely or is it sufficient to bleach just a little bit the highlights?

[Marco B]

If you read the technical papers of Ilford Multigrade RC/FB and Ilford Multrigrade Warmtone RC/FB, you will notice that Ilford says that "Ilford Multigrade" paper has been "designed" to withstand color and density changes while (selenium) toning, and "Ilford Multigrade Warmtone" is "designed" to "respond well" to different kinds of toning.

Hence, similar "resistance" to color and density changes can be seen with other toners as well. Just try to sepia tone normal "Ilford Multigrade" and "Ilford Multigrade Warmtone", there is a HUGE difference. You can not get the dramatic brown / orange color change of the warmtone variant with the normal paper... not even if you bleach the paper 100%.

Marco

http://www.boeringa.demon.nl

[Marco B]

I have a question related to the last post.

Isnt it possible to bleach the print before bathing in the selenium toner? Do I have to bleach the print entirely or is it sufficient to bleach just a little bit the highlights?

You can use bleach to reduce the overall density of the print somewhat, just make sure you re-fix and properly wash the print before selenium toning.

Please note that bleaching is NOT a required step (like in two bath bleach / redevelop sepia toning) to be able to tone. If you bleach the image entirely and re-fix, you will have lost your image for ever!!! There will be no metallic silver left to tone, nor will you be able to redevelop it in developer or in a thiourea sepia toning bath.

Marco

http://www.boeringa.demon.nl

[Ian Grant]

The type of bleach and redeveloper can significantly influence the image tone and subsequent image colour, and also make a "Neutral tone" paper susceptible to Selenium toning.

The usual bleach is potassium bromide & sodium ferricyanide, but substitute sodium chloride for the bromide and you will get significant warmth redeveloping in a warm tone developer.

Another route is use Ilford IT-8, which bleaches in a bichromate, hydrochloric acid bath followed by a pyrocatechin developer, this will selenium tone as well.

Ian


You can use bleach to reduce the overall density of the print somewhat, just make sure you re-fix and properly wash the print before selenium toning.

Please note that bleaching is NOT a required step (like in two bath bleach / redevelop sepia toning) to be able to tone. If you bleach the image entirely and re-fix, you will have lost your image for ever!!! There will be no metallic silver left to tone, nor will you be able to redevelop it in developer or in a thiourea sepia toning bath.

Marco

http://www.boeringa.demon.nl