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dwross
04-15-2008, 10:39 AM
Ryuji:

I've just spent my coffee cup time (very precious time!) with your website. Congratulations on getting it put together again after such a disaster. It's got a very nice look to it. Besides just enjoying other photographers' websites, I visited primarily to find out more information about emulsion making than you've posted here recently. I understand the reluctance to basically copy and paste your own website to other forums when we are all mouse click neighbors. But, as much as I enjoyed it, I'm going to ask for an 'improvement' (i.e. something that makes your website more usable for me :) )

I can't tell what information is from your own, personal, hands-on work, and what is from a literature search. I would love to see more images and illustrations of the setups you use. A few step tablet scans would be great. Where you have referenced other sources, it would be enormously useful to cite those. I think we're all in agreement that there is an 'emergent properties' thing going on in most of these setups. One thing is affecting another and the results may be bigger than what the sum of the parts would have you think. Misinformation, either deliberate or an unfortunate byproduct of assuming an incomplete picture is the whole picture, can set back the most determined investigator and terminally discourage someone just getting started. None of us want to see that happen.

The resurrection of the art/science of handcrafted silver gelatin is farther along than it was just a year ago. Then, I believe, when it was still mostly theory, the conversations were happily theoretical. Today, many of us want solid, how-to information: sources, precise descriptions of tools and materials, times, temperatures, and more. And, most of all, actual negatives and prints made with the techniques under discussion.

Don't be reluctant to share what you've made so far. I don't think any of us expect that the first of our efforts are going to be clones of the best materials from the heyday of commercial products. I believe (and preach ad tedium) that better-than-heyday is within our reach, but it will take all of us working together and honestly sharing our results, warts and all.

d

Ryuji
04-15-2008, 12:01 PM
Denise,

Most of my information come from my own experience, or journals such as Journal of Photographic Science, Journal of Photographic Science and Engineering and Journal of the Society of Photographic Science and Technology of Japan. Other information come from analyses of numerous US, European and Japanese patents. Also I get much useful information from industrial and academic researchers in all these three regions. The sources are usually referred by the name and date of the original publication, except patents that are referred by the number. Patent is a very tricky information source and it often happens that one piece of information must be obtained by cross comparing multiple patents, since they usually hide problems not solved by the particular invention, and they also hide the "know-how" aspect of the invention as much as they can.

I wrote many of the emulsion related pages many years ago, and that were copied and pasted into the wiki engine when I switched the system, without much expansion since then. If you need a particular info, I'd be happy to give it priority over other work on my site, please email me directly at the address on the website. That address goes to a separate folder that I use for my server and contents work.

Kirk also requested some of the emulsion formulae, and I'm putting together a little formula collection when I find spare time. He is mostly interested in 100-speed negative emulsion. Do you have a request for a particular type of emulsion?

dwross
04-15-2008, 04:43 PM
Kirk also requested some of the emulsion formulae, and I'm putting together a little formula collection when I find spare time. He is mostly interested in 100-speed negative emulsion. Do you have a request for a particular type of emulsion?

Thank you for the generous offer, but I'll be happy to tag along with Kirk's requests. He has good taste. I can imagine how much work it will be to 'put together a little collection'. I hope it goes well and can include examples to benchmark against our own efforts.

I can't seem to find the references you mentioned, but I can be awfully blind. Is there a citation page currently or is it still under construction after your crash?

Thanks again,
d

Ryuji
04-15-2008, 06:58 PM
Compiling a bibliographic list of references is a lot of tedious unpleasant work and it very often gets behind. I have 3 drawers worth of papers and then many shelves of bound journals and references... can you imagine making a complete list of these material? (I can't imagine I read all these and some papers I read many times, very closely.) If you need a specific information, I can happily look up and supply the info. But if you are just looking for a general reference, you should find better overall description with fairly long list of references in the book by Keller, and tutorial articles written by David Locker, Jong Wey, Maskasky, Olm, Sturmer, Tani, and Mueller. Of course, all these people have their specialization (for example, Wey is very specialized on nucleation and growth of silver halide crystals, and Tani on sensitivity mechanisms). Actually, half of the wealth of knowledge on emulsion science and technology is written in Japanese. Anyway, for me, it was very useful to study the original research, as I often get satisfaction from learning the mechanism behind the phenomenon I see in front of me, and this in turn is useful in troubleshooting in darkroom, because once I know the mechanism I can think about the most effective way to solve the problems. However, to average people, academic publications are not very pleasant to read. It just happens that I'd rather listen to Bob Dylan, NPR and read scientific paper, than some of those material with low information density.

Ryuji
04-15-2008, 07:14 PM
Denise and Kirk,

I have a question for you guys. What kind of drying cabinet did you make to let the coated plates dry? I like to coat about 12 plates at a time and want to have a light tight drying cabinet that is simple/cheap to construct.

Thanks

Ryuji

Photo Engineer
04-15-2008, 07:54 PM
It was a pleasure to have dinner with Tadeki Tani and his wife on their last visit to Rochester. We sat with Paul Gilman and his wife while the three of us 'guys' talked in English and discussed sensitization, what else. That was where we were later joined by our own Ray Rogers from APUG who I met in person for the first time.

Tadeki Tani speaks almost perfect English and we had a lively discussion. He attended Paul's presentation on the 25,000 speed reversal film.

My point being, Denise and Kirk, is that you will find that most everything is published somewhere in English eventually. Even the ICIS minutes from the Tokyo meeting 6 years ago were all in English. I have published a list of significant patents by number elsewhere including the seminal Wey and Whiteley patent. These are two people for whom I have the greatest respect. I did my initial emulsion modeling work on the Wey and Whitely emulsions, and know them well.

But beware of patents. Some are never used, some are impractical, and almost all of them are considerably modified before the production stage. And, lots of information is left out. Wey and Whitely is a stunning example. You can make exactly what they say from the patent, but the outgrowth and final incarnation of it was far better than the original disclosure and much simpler to carry out. Another is my patent on Formaldehyde bisulfite. It was never used until the patent had expired, and the implementation was not in an odorless stabilzer as originally intended, but rather in the E6 pre-bleach bath.

PE

Ray Rogers
04-16-2008, 12:04 AM
That much non-English information eventually finds its way into English is not untrue....

However,

The point is well taken that the most complete picture of emulsion technology can be obtained by the ability to consult texts in French, German, Russian, Japanese and of course English.

The contibution of Japanese workers is not to be underrated.

That said, No one is contesting the leadership of KODAK research.
The fact that Kodak clearly out-right imported and/or bought much of their knowledge, not withstanding!

(I hope this doesn't turn into a cultural/corporate bashing thread!)

I feel the value of Russian and French work is much underrated.

Yes, most of the important work does get translated into English at some point in time and in one way or another.

But that is only the cream of the crop, and some original material is undoubtably lost. I cringe everytime I see old journals and research reports being discarded... research takes a lot of work and valuable observations can be made by anyone anywhere at any level of sophsitication. I myself have to sort what I consider the cream from the Wey (?!) and have to discard more and more digital stuff all the time.

I also attended the Tokyo meeting, by the way.

Sometimes it is difficult for champions to refrain from beating their chests.
I sincerly hope this does not turn into a 'mine is beter than yours' thread.
All good research is valuable and if not immeadiatly digested and incorporated, should at least be archived until such time comes.

I have the highest respect and admiration for Japanese Researchers.

For anyone who cares, I am American partially raised in Europe, btw.

Ray
---


PS
There is a very tiny error of nuance in Ron's post;
While I do try to control the beating of my chest as much as possible, I too, after all, am a result of my hormones!
I choose to let it stand as is however, because I recognise and accept the pecking order.:p

Ray Rogers
04-16-2008, 01:50 AM
...beware of patents. Some are never used, some are impractical, and almost all of them are considerably modified before the production stage. And, lots of information is left out. Wey and Whitely is a stunning example. You can make exactly what they say from the patent, but the outgrowth and final incarnation of it was far better than the original disclosure and much simpler to carry out.
PE

Humm, I have heard that there was a rift inside KODAK between management and the patent department, with management being behind the much of the lack of candor blamed on the patent department.


Does anyone know who Kodak actually liscensed ?
Specific Examples?
How many patents were ultimately liscensed ?
How much would Kodak get per liscense (range-actual data)
What kind of renumeration did the inventors receive, initially and then later, if the patent actually proved able to generate revenue.

???

While I am talking about Kodak, the same question goes for any other sensitized material manufacturer as well.

Ray

Ray Rogers
04-16-2008, 02:22 AM
...patents. You can make exactly what they say from the patent, but the outgrowth and final incarnation of it was far better than the original disclosure and much simpler to carry out.
PE

This sounds more like progress than deception.
EVERYONE bashes patents.

Can someone who has actually patented a misleading patent, discuss this with us? That would be very informative! I guess not many will be willing to admit to decption in public however.

Ray

Photo Engineer
04-16-2008, 10:02 AM
Ray;

There has never been a rift at Kodak between management and the patent department. That I can say categorically.

Cross liscencing of patents between all photo manfucaturers is a fact of life. It is very common. Japanese engineers and attorneys visited Kodak regularly from Fuji and Konishiroku as well as Agfa and that is how I met many of them. The revers was also true with Kodak people going abroad.

As for patents being deceptive, the fact is that you may list hundreds of chemicals and give 2 or 3 examples that do work, but you don't have to disclose the optimum, just one that works. The words "by methods known to one who is skilled in the art" are famous in patents. It means that any chemist might read the patent and the point might entirely escape them unless they knew photographic science and engineering as well.

There is an 'art' in this that many have no knowledge of. No one person at Kodak knew a complete formula.

PE

dwross
04-16-2008, 10:32 AM
Denise and Kirk,

I have a question for you guys. What kind of drying cabinet did you make to let the coated plates dry? I like to coat about 12 plates at a time and want to have a light tight drying cabinet that is simple/cheap to construct.

Thanks

Ryuji

Alas, no drying cabinet in my darkroom. If I made one, I'd have to hang it from the ceiling. My darkroom has 'space allocation overcommitment' (from a list of currently used verbage, but one I actually like - much better than 'packed to the rafters'.)

I do all my coating last thing in the day before I shut down. I have filter fabric over the air intakes to the darkroom (just greenhouse Visqueen) so I rarely get debris settling on coatings. The first time I coated plates, I pre-chilled 11x14 plate glass in the refrigerator. What a nuisance. I had to remove boxes of paper to make room and the cleanup seemed excessive. The next time, and since, I set the plates out on plastic lids lined up in a tray, at room temperature. Except that it was considerably easier, I didn't notice any difference. Right now, I'm developing recipes for the Melenex subbed film that Photographers Formulary sells. That handles just like paper - easier actually because it doesn't swell or curl.

Having said that I, personally, have rejected the need for specialized drying cabinets and chilling tables, I would still love to hear from people who use either or both. Marco Boeringa has posted a description of his homemade drying box both here and on The Light Farm (in the 'News') section.

Denise

dwross
04-16-2008, 10:57 AM
Yes, most of the important work does get translated into English at some point in time and in one way or another.

But that is only the cream of the crop, and some original material is undoubtably lost. I cringe every time I see old journals and research reports being discarded... research takes a lot of work and valuable observations can be made by anyone anywhere at any level of sophisitication. I myself have to sort what I consider the cream from the Wey (?!) and have to discard more and more digital stuff all the time.


One of my favorite references is the English Edition of Making and Coating Photographic Emulsions, by V.L. Zelikman and S.M. Levi, originally published in Russian. I have an academic's love of original sources and it makes me nuts to look through the references at the end of every chapter and realize that even if I could read Russian, and German, and who knows what else, those original sources may be lost to us.

I hope that everyone who has boxes of information stashed here and there (and I have mine) considers at some point cataloging and archiving. I personally can't imagine anything more tedious - or anything as important. The Rosetta Stone to emulsion making will be carved by all of us.

Denise

Kirk Keyes
04-16-2008, 11:37 AM
I have a question for you guys. What kind of drying cabinet did you make to let the coated plates dry? I like to coat about 12 plates at a time and want to have a light tight drying cabinet that is simple/cheap to construct.


I was laying them out in the darkroom (I have about 3 times more space than Denise) and just letting them sit until dry. Then I stacked the plates and put some paper over the top to keep dust off. Here's where my problem started - about a week later, I got a package of stuff (including phthalated gelatin) from the Formulary, went down to the darkroom to put the box in, walked into the room, and flipped on the lights. OOOoooppppppsss. Turned them off in a second, but I fogged all the plates....

Next time I need to put the plates in some more light tight storage.

Photo Engineer
04-16-2008, 11:52 AM
At Kodak, we had neat little light tight drying cabinets. They would dry 20 sheets of 5" paper or plates to give us effectively 40 4x5 sheets of paper, or plates or 40 35mm strips for in-camera work. The box was closed and latched and had a small blower at the top with a HEPA filter. The flow was cross flow as each shelf was offset from the other so that you had a front back front back array of shelves with a small 1" air flow space either at the front or back. Very effective.

Of course, here I just coat 20 sheets of 8x10 in a session and hang them up by clips. Plates are set out on a cool glass surface to dry.

PE

Ray Rogers
04-16-2008, 12:35 PM
There has never been a rift at Kodak between management and the patent department. That I can say categorically.


PE

Interesting point of view.
Perhaps there are differing opinions,
I don't know.
I would like to make it clear however that I was not speculating.

Ray

Photo Engineer
04-16-2008, 01:10 PM
Ray;

I spent a year working with the patent office after Ektacolor 37 paper came out and before I began work on catalytic imaging. They had a backlog of Invention Reports, and had to take one person from each department to do this work. I worked directly under Dr. R. Damschroder, asst. director of research at the time. I also worked under and trained under the person who became next head of the patent department.

The point of this story is to let you know that I did work virtually within the KRL patent division for a year. I also knew and met with the head of Kodak Legal several times on legal matters due to the lawsuits and copyrights among others.

I can say that there is no problem and was none at that time. I'm not even sure I understand your statement nor where this can come from. I do know that there is a different arrangement now, in that the scientist has more burden on him to prove originality and the state of the art and the scientist has to write the first draft. He has to do his own literature searches for the most part, but he still has an attorney work with him writing the patent. In the past, there were patent associates at EK that did literature searches on each Invention Report. That job is now incumbent on the scientist.

PE

Ray Rogers
04-16-2008, 01:28 PM
Cross liscencing of patents between all photo manfucaturers is a fact of life. It is very common. Japanese engineers and attorneys visited Kodak regularly from Fuji and Konishiroku as well as Agfa and that is how I met many of them. The revers was also true with Kodak people going abroad.

Is there an easy way to see if a patent has ever been liscenced?

As for patents being deceptive, the fact is that you may list hundreds of chemicals and give 2 or 3 examples that do work, but you don't have to disclose the optimum, just one that works.

???
I HAVE seen patents that claim optimum known conditions seemingly as a requirement... the exact phrase escapes me now... but I beleive this may be related to the also commonly found "preferred embodiment" and "most preferred embodiment".

I am certainly no patent specialist but are you sure that you are not SUPPOSED to identify the optimal known conditions ?
(for the claims - naturally not for the emulsions)

Ray

Photo Engineer
04-16-2008, 01:37 PM
There is supposed to be a preferred embodiment, but see the thread I started on patents for more information.

A preferred embodiment does not need to disclose everything! It just has to disclose how to make the invention work, not how to make best use of the invention.

As for cross liscenced patents, there is no way to tell, nor is there a way outside of a laboratory to tell if anyone is in violation of patents. Kodak has a unit which is charged with patent enforcement. They look at all film and paper products to determine if they are free of patent violations.

PE

Ray Rogers
04-16-2008, 01:49 PM
I'm not even sure I understand your statement nor where this can come from. I do know that there is a different arrangement now....
PE

This may explain the difference.
I would have to reread the original document to be certain, but it could be in relation to Polaroid. Perhaps having to do with pressure to obtain broader claims... and being candid. I can confirm tomorrow, but it seems clear that even if there were such a problem, it may have been an isolated one.

Ray

rmazzullo
04-16-2008, 02:04 PM
One of my favorite references is the English Edition of Making and Coating Photographic Emulsions, by V.L. Zelikman and S.M. Levi, originally published in Russian. Denise

You might want to explore "Photographic Emulsion Chemistry, by G. F. Duffin", and how often it's referred to in various patents.

Bob M.