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Photo Engineer
04-01-2008, 02:15 PM
Thanks Bruce.

All too few people have seen samples, and very few have seen it on canvas or watercolor paper. Depending on scene, these can be very striking.

PE

argus
04-01-2008, 05:50 PM
PE, 100 ASA sounds great already (I understand the difficulty is in speed), but I read lately that a lot of people are interested in the slower films, like 25ASA.
What's holding you back to concentrate your expertise on this kind of speeds?

Non silver halide processes will put all of us over a hundred years back...

G

dyetransfer
04-01-2008, 06:36 PM
Ray;

Also, if Kodak, Fuji and Ilford go out of business or falter in any way and we emulsion makers are all gone (there are about 200 WW and we are rather oldish now) how will you make anything that is silver-gelatin unless it is passed on.

PE

I fully expect that silver-halide based materials will be discontinued by all commercial interests in the fairly near future. Probably the last to go will be type C papers since they are still cheaper to use than inkjet in commercial labs.

I make Dye Transfer prints. While I am using a commercially made stock of matrix film made to my formulation, I have made it myself in the past, and would make it in the future if need be. I do this because I feel that the dye prints are far superior to any other method I have seen, its worth the effort and expense because it simply can't be duplicated any other way. For that reason alone, its worth preserving the methods of making the materials and the techniques for using them to make the finest color prints.

Clearly, there are many other processes (B&W silver halide fiber papers for instance) which give superior results and are worth maintaining the knowledge base for making them. This will disapper completely when the firms currently making these materials become distant memories. If we don't do it, no one will.

Finally, the technology of making silver halide materials is fairly simple (in its basic form) when compared to what sort of infrastructure needed to maintain digital photography. You don't need a $ 2 B silicon fab plant with which to make sensors for instance. If the s--t really hits the fan (and from my current prospective, it is doing precisely that right now) then society won't have this 'apex' digital technology anymore, and the only method of recording images will be silver halide. Now, THAT is something worth the effort to preserve! Just my opinion. Regards - Jim Browning (Mister Dye Transfer)

Photo Engineer
04-01-2008, 06:44 PM
PE, 100 ASA sounds great already (I understand the difficulty is in speed), but I read lately that a lot of people are interested in the slower films, like 25ASA.
What's holding you back to concentrate your expertise on this kind of speeds?

Non silver halide processes will put all of us over a hundred years back...

G

I guess you have missed my earlier posts.

I have an ISO 3, 6, 12 and 25 set of blue sensitive emulsions similar to those extant nearly 100 years ago. Two years ago I expanded that to an ortho ISO 40 emulsion, and now I am working on an ortho ISO 100+ emulsion and BTW, I just finished testing the new raw emulsion and it is as fast as the finished ISO 40 emulsion so add 1 - 2 stops and that is what it will be when finished.

When I save enough $$, I will get a set of IR goggles and lights and go on to make the pan equivalent which will be rather nice because then I can extend the work backwards to the ISO 3 and make it pan sensitive.

I hope this answers your question.

PE

dwross
04-01-2008, 07:09 PM
Ron,

From all the interest you generate every time you post an update, it'd be a good bet that you could start publishing what you know now rather than later. I realize you don't feel like you are in a financial situation that allows you to publish without compensation, but I'd like you to consider selling 'chapters' at a time, as you finish them, either CD's or downloads. I'm predicting: Hot as pancakes and an income for life. Your public awaits.


For those of you who may be new to this thread and topic, Jim Browning (a.k.a. Mister Dye Transfer) has set the standard for those of us who cherish the philosophy of public domain. You can see all he is doing at http://www.dyetransfer.org/. Thank you, Jim.

Photo Engineer
04-01-2008, 08:12 PM
Denise;

You have some good points, but I hardly have time to devote to writing, taping and experimenting not to mention the fact that I have several requests on my time to consult. In addition, this work is not finished.

Now, to add to it all, some people want to buy some of my formulas, making it all worth while as I have invested a lot to do this work ( something for me- finally! We can go on a real vacation instead of going to a workshop.). If I publish, where does this leave me financially for the money invested!? If someone offers me a royaldy or an outright payment for a formula and I give it away, the formula becomes worthless.

I hate to put it this way, but so far I have lost a lot on this. I do not want to make a profit, I want to break even! The total cost - income is a huge negative value. I could give it, but I doubt if you would belive me!

Ron

Vaughn
04-01-2008, 09:08 PM
I have several 5x7 modern glass plate holders -- I was thinking of trading them for film holders (I believe I traded Denise a couple -- Denise, I hope they worked out for you!).

But I think I will keep my little paws on those babies -- sounds like I might have need of them someday. What an interesting work-flow that would be...homemade silver gelatin glass plates printed on homemade carbon tissue.

Thanks, Ron.

Vaughn

Photo Engineer
04-01-2008, 09:10 PM
I have several 5x7 modern glass plate holders -- I was thinking of trading them for film holders (I believe I traded Denise a couple -- Denise, I hope they worked out for you!).

But I think I will keep my little paws on those babies -- sounds like I might have need of them someday. What an interesting work-flow that would be...homemade silver gelatin glass plates printed on homemade carbon tissue.

Thanks, Ron.

Vaughn

I hope you saw my last glass plate examples.

PE

Vaughn
04-01-2008, 11:00 PM
I hope you saw my last glass plate examples.

PE

Sorry, I did not. Must have missed them. May I please have a link to them...sorry for the trouble....

Vaughn

PS...did a search and found a post titled "Making a photographic plate by hand" is that the one you are referring to? I remember seeing something by you using the coating rod (well, not rod, but something like that.)

dwross
04-01-2008, 11:25 PM
I have several 5x7 modern glass plate holders -- I was thinking of trading them for film holders (I believe I traded Denise a couple -- Denise, I hope they worked out for you!).

But I think I will keep my little paws on those babies -- sounds like I might have need of them someday. What an interesting work-flow that would be...homemade silver gelatin glass plates printed on homemade carbon tissue.

Thanks, Ron.

Vaughn

Hi Vaughn,

Yes! The film holders worked out just great. I thanked you over on LF, but come to think of it, you didn't reply, which isn't like you. I should have realized that you missed it. Here's what came of it: http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/GlassNegatives/MapTopic.htm

Don't give away your film holders either. The Photographers' Formulary is selling a subbed film product called Melenex. I've just started working with it and it coats like a dream and is easily cut with a rotary paper cutter to fit film holders. The film is listed as out of stock right this minute because the Formulary is having fits with their film cutter. Blessed perfectionists that they are, they aren't selling until its right, but the stuff is worth the wait. I've made a first run through with an emulsion designed for the film. We've had so much rain here the moss is growing moss, so I had to resort to contact printing a step wedge onto the coated film. I then enlarged and printed the resulting negative on Ilford Multigrade. We should be seeing enough nice weather soon that I can get the 5x7 outside to expose negatives. Look for the results on the Film Negative page of The Light Farm in 1-2 weeks.
Here's what it looks like so far - a scan of the Ilford print and the negative it came from (a step wedge contact printed on handcoated Melenex.)

I would love to see you print homemade plates onto homemade carbon tissue.
Fun!

Denise

dwross
04-01-2008, 11:42 PM
Ron,

Sad day. As much as I might understand and even sympathize with your desire to see a chunk of money, it's still sad to see your knowledge disappear into proprietary limbo. So much emulsion research had already gone that route. I have to say, it seems to me that selling DVD's and downloads could be a pretty good income, not 'giving away' at all, but it's time for me to pull my nose out of your business. The best of luck to you.

The Light Farm will continue on its open source mission. I'm having great luck with film emulsions and I will be posting the results soon. In addition, I'm working up a sampler of different papers coated first with homemade baryta. That adds a very nice extra dimension. We have five, and counting, emulsion makers ready soon to become Contributing Editors. That's the part I'm most excited about. I hope others will join us soon.

d

Vaughn
04-01-2008, 11:56 PM
Denise,

I had missed it. Glad it worked out for you! Good luck in-camera!!!

I wonder if one could get enough UV through a pinhole to expose a carbon tissue and form an image. Never heard of anyone doing it, but carbon printing (and other chromated gelatin processes) has been around for so long I would not be surprised to find out it has been tried and found not to work.

Vaughn

Kirk Keyes
04-02-2008, 12:48 AM
Denise - your print (on the left?) looks a lot sharper than the neg (on the right?) - it that correct?

Kirk

Photo Engineer
04-02-2008, 08:53 AM
Denise, I don't wish a "chunk of money", just a return of what I have put into this. Remember, you and your husband are working, but I'm retired and on a fixed income. If my work is not sustained by some form of equivalent income then my work will have to come to an end. That is a simple truth.

PE

dwross
04-02-2008, 09:13 AM
Vaughn,

I'm going to break one of my cardinal rules and take a guess about something I haven't tried personally. I suspect just about any aperture onto any material will work if you can give it enough time. How's that for profundity? But, I can just about visualize a beautiful, brightly lit pinhole-on-carbon tissue still life. What I'm seeing in my mind's eye is beautiful. Good luck!


From Kirk:

Denise - your print (on the left?) looks a lot sharper than the neg (on the right?) - it that correct?

Kirk,
The jpeg on the left is the film scanned on a flatbed scanner. Since there isn't an antihalation layer, the scannning light bounced around something fierce making the halos that look soft. The negative does have a slight real softening around the number 1 because my contact printing frame isn't quite tight enough for film on film. If I were planning on more of those kinds of tests I'd go get another layer or two of black felt. The lefthand jpeg is the negative enlarged through a 5x7 Zone IV enlarger with glass carrier, exposed for highest contrast on Ilford Multigrade.

Isn't it about time for you to come over to Newport for a beach day? I'll show you what I've been up to.
d

Photo Engineer
04-02-2008, 09:23 AM
Denise;

If you want AH in the film, try adding some tartrazine dye to the melt before coating. I believe that the liquid dyes in the grocery store has tartrazine in the yellow, but I'm not sure. You will need an equivalent to about 0.3 density in the film to see any improvement and you may need more. Remember that this will cost speed.

The other option is to coat some on the back which is very hard to do. I have several oxonol dyes that might work for that. It will not cost speed though.

PE

argus
04-02-2008, 09:25 AM
I guess you have missed my earlier posts.

I have an ISO 3, 6, 12 and 25 set of blue sensitive emulsions similar to those extant nearly 100 years ago. Two years ago I expanded that to an ortho ISO 40 emulsion, and now I am working on an ortho ISO 100+ emulsion and BTW, I just finished testing the new raw emulsion and it is as fast as the finished ISO 40 emulsion so add 1 - 2 stops and that is what it will be when finished.

When I save enough $$, I will get a set of IR goggles and lights and go on to make the pan equivalent which will be rather nice because then I can extend the work backwards to the ISO 3 and make it pan sensitive.

I hope this answers your question.

PE

Thanks Ron, I indeed missed earlier posts. I was not really that interested in emulsions before.
Guess I'll have to read the whole subforum on the subject to get along.

Kind regards,
Geert

Photo Engineer
04-02-2008, 10:08 AM
Denise;

I forgot to add that one of the biggest paybacks in teaching someone something is to see the student produce such wonderful work as you do. You are giving me a big payback in satisfaction seeing how you are taking to emulsion making and the quality of your work.

Many thanks.

PE

magic823
04-02-2008, 10:10 AM
I wish you were giving a class at the formulary this year, since I missed it last year.

Kirk Keyes
04-02-2008, 10:33 AM
Denise -thank's for the clarification.

And yes, it is time for a beach trip. We'll be in Manzanita weekend after this one. If you want to meet us there, that would be great! This weekend is Sophia's 2nd birthday!