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Sean
04-06-2008, 05:12 AM
Looks interesting and possible? Probably not a cheap piece of equipment but as with all tech the price will likely drop and consumer models may appear. If it could print a photographic emulsion I am assuming the emulsion would bleed into a thin uniform coating. Maybe potential for the creation of micro-brew style film & paper companies doing small batch runs..

http://www.dimatix.com/divisions/materials-deposition-division/printer_cartridge.asp

http://www.dimatix.com/img/products/DimatixMaterialsPrinter_large.jpg

"The DMP-2800 series printer allows the deposition of fluidic materials on an 8x11 inch or A4 substrate"

"The most unique feature of this table top printing system is the printhead itself - a world first! FUJIFILM Dimatix has created a MEMS-based cartridge-style printhead that allows users to fill their own fluids and print immediately with the DMP in their own laboratory. To minimize waste of expensive fluids, each cartridge reservoir has a capacity of 1.5 ml. Cartridges can easily be replaced to facilitate printing of a series of fluids. Each single-use cartridge has 16 nozzles linearly spaced at 254 microns with typical drop sizes of 1 and 10 picoliters."

Sean
04-06-2008, 05:15 AM
P.S. Ron, maybe Fuji will loan you a demo unit? :)

David A. Goldfarb
04-06-2008, 07:06 AM
I think with this sort of technology, the problem is keeping the gelatin from cooling and clogging the nozzle.

My impression is that these are designed for things like depositing biological cultures on films and such.

arigram
04-06-2008, 07:22 AM
Dear Sean,
you must be new here.
In APUG we don't discuss such technologies.
You should check out www.hybridphoto.com
Welcome to APUG though!

(seriously, this looks very interesting and may well be our future for DIY photography)

tim_walls
04-06-2008, 07:34 AM
I think with this sort of technology, the problem is keeping the gelatin from cooling and clogging the nozzle.

My impression is that these are designed for things like depositing biological cultures on films and such.

From the datasheet for the device:

Cartridge:
Type: Piezo-driven jetting device with integrated reservoir and heater

It also states that the vacuum-holder for the paper incorporates a thermostatically controlled heater, up to 60C, so keeping the stuff warm has obviously been a consideration.

It helps that the printheads are disposable as well!

David A. Goldfarb
04-06-2008, 07:42 AM
Hmmm...well that's a possibility then, though it's probably pretty slow.

Kirk Keyes
04-06-2008, 10:56 AM
Cartidges better be dirt cheap as I forsee it taking a lot of them to get things set up.

And people thought Ron's coating blades were expensive...

glbeas
04-06-2008, 11:38 AM
I would think something as low tech as a high mesh count silkscreen would do for applying a print emulsion. Anyone ever try it?

Photo Engineer
04-06-2008, 11:44 AM
The Fuji unit would probably work, but at 12 ml / square foot it would need a rather big capacity cartridge, IDK for sure.

As for silk screen, sure it would work, but it is wasteful of emulsion and leaves an uneven silk type pattern quite unlike coating on silk paper IIRC. It leaves a lot of emulsion on the applicator and on the screen which must be washed down the drain or somehow saved. Saving it seems unlikely to me.

PE

Jordan
04-06-2008, 01:17 PM
The Dimatix is for printing "specialty" inks -- electronic materials, biomaterials, jetted coatings and overcoats, lab-on-a-chip devices, etc. It could probably handle emulsions, but is probably overkill for the job...

glbeas
04-06-2008, 02:10 PM
The Fuji unit would probably work, but at 12 ml / square foot it would need a rather big capacity cartridge, IDK for sure.

As for silk screen, sure it would work, but it is wasteful of emulsion and leaves an uneven silk type pattern quite unlike coating on silk paper IIRC. It leaves a lot of emulsion on the applicator and on the screen which must be washed down the drain or somehow saved. Saving it seems unlikely to me.

PE

Actually it would be pretty economical. The ink or emulsion is scraped off the squeegee and off the screen with a chip of cardboard or plastic and is returned to it's container. Very little has to be washed off. As for the pattern, a 300 mesh polyester screen leaves very little pattern and a 300 mesh stainless steel mesh even less. Most ripples settle as the medium sits and dries down. Thickness can be varied by squeegee angle and how rounded the sqeegee edge is. I worked at a metal decorating plant, the techniques there are much different from what you may be familiar with for tee shirts and much better than for making posters.

Photo Engineer
04-06-2008, 02:22 PM
Actually it would be pretty economical. The ink or emulsion is scraped off the squeegee and off the screen with a chip of cardboard or plastic and is returned to it's container. Very little has to be washed off. As for the pattern, a 300 mesh polyester screen leaves very little pattern and a 300 mesh stainless steel mesh even less. Most ripples settle as the medium sits and dries down. Thickness can be varied by squeegee angle and how rounded the sqeegee edge is. I worked at a metal decorating plant, the techniques there are much different from what you may be familiar with for tee shirts and much better than for making posters.

Well, if you think it will work, give it a try. Liquid light should work as a commercially available emulsion.

PE

glbeas
04-06-2008, 02:25 PM
Well, if you think it will work, give it a try. Liquid light should work as a commercially available emulsion.

PE

I'll let you know soon as I get some together. I have an old screen stashed in the basement, Ill just have to find the emulsion and a pro quality sqeegee.

dwross
04-06-2008, 03:10 PM
The Dimatix is for printing "specialty" inks -- electronic materials, biomaterials, jetted coatings and overcoats, lab-on-a-chip devices, etc. It could probably handle emulsions, but is probably overkill for the job...

Maybe not overkill. What could be considered 'overkill' is probably dependent on the end-use goal. It's been my impression that a number of people are interested in a cottage industry goal - film or paper. If the Dimatix could be configured to produce a good product with minimum time and materials waste, it could be just the ticket for the next George Eastman.

I hope someone gives it a try (and writes about it on The Light Farm :))

Ray Rogers
04-06-2008, 03:44 PM
Did I over look something here?

"To minimize waste of expensive fluids, each cartridge reservoir has a capacity of 1.5 ml....Each single-use cartridge has "

So how many 10 by 8's can you print with 1.5 mL?!!
Another problem is the 'single use' nature....

But theoretically speaking, what IS the maximum area
1.5 mL of a thin, non-viscous liquid can cover?

Does anyone here know the coverage of regular printer ink, per mL?

PE also notes that a bigger cartridge would be necessary...
but I doubt it could just be plug and play... is there room for a bigger cartridge?

Perhaps what is needed is not a cartridge, but a live feed.

Ray

Photo Engineer
04-06-2008, 03:54 PM
Ray;

My printer contains probably about 10 - 20 ml in several cardridges and can make many many color prints or documents from a load of cartridges. I would guess though that if you averaged out all of my prints over use of the cartridges it would be about 1 ml/print.

This is not enough coverage of any sort of emulsion to get a dmax image. Emulsions need to be about 1 kg/mole or 1 kg/0.5 mole to be coatable and papers use from 1000 - 5000 mg of silver per square meter to achieve that good black black and a high enough contrast.

I doubt if 1.5 ml will do the job.

PE

Sean
04-06-2008, 04:38 PM
I think if one of the goals is to print solar cells like they say then they would eventually have a direct feed unit vs. single disposable 1.5ml cartridges. It will also probably gain capability to print onto a roll as well. It will be interesting to see where the dimatix is in about 5yrs time..

Photo Engineer
04-06-2008, 05:17 PM
If it works, further discussion should be on hybrid photo.

PE

Ray Rogers
04-06-2008, 07:49 PM
Ray;

This is not enough coverage of any sort of emulsion to get a dmax image...
I doubt if 1.5 ml will do the job.

PE

Ron,

That was my point.

I agree with you on the numbers, but I can't say I know of any papers that have that much silver... 5000 mg would seem very high except in special cases....

Ray

Ray Rogers
04-06-2008, 07:57 PM
I think if one of the goals is to print solar cells like they say then they would eventually have a direct feed unit vs. single disposable 1.5ml cartridges. It will also probably gain capability to print onto a roll as well. It will be interesting to see where the dimatix is in about 5yrs time..

That will indeed be interesting!
Who knows, this could even hold some promise as a new industrial method!
:o
If someone follows its development, by all means post a notice here for those of us who never travel beyond their own borders!

Ray