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Mustafa Umut Sarac
08-28-2008, 07:22 PM
Scanning Electron Micrographs of the emulsion
X ray Diffraction and EDS data analysis for elements present
Vapor Phase Chromatography
Ron , if it takes thousands in USA , it takes hundreds at China !
Can you learn who can do these research at China or is there anyone who knows China ?

Best ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

David A. Goldfarb
08-28-2008, 07:26 PM
I've posted my take on the Type 55/Pan-X connection here--

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum172/47058-polaroid-discontinued-boston-globe-02-08-08-a-14.html#post593173

Out of curiosity, have you asked Grant Haist if he's thought any more about this since writing The Monobath Manual?

Ray Rogers
08-28-2008, 07:28 PM
I have this from authoritative sources that Kodak did not develop any emulsions for Dr. Land. We did R&D for Polaroid, but in all cases either the emulsions were from Polaroid, or we did R&D with our emulsions and using their proposed variations on format and formula and gave them the generic "answers" without Kodak knowing or producing the emulsion formulas.

In no case did Land use a Kodak formula nor did he have one according to excellent sources.

PE

Some of the difference in our POVs here may be semantics.
Kodak may have supplied the material itself not the formulas.

I should point out I concur with many of Ron's points above.
I imagine agreements came and went and Polaroid did its best to be self-sufficient.

But it is entirly possible that they would have been commercially unsuccessful without Kodak's extensive help.

Ray Rogers
08-28-2008, 07:30 PM
Scanning Electron Micrographs of the emulsion
X ray Diffraction and EDS data analysis for elements present
Vapor Phase Chromatography
Ron , if it takes thousands in USA , it takes hundreds at China !
Can you learn who can do these research at China or is there anyone who knows China ?

Best ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

I know several Chinese researchers

Mustafa Umut Sarac
08-28-2008, 07:41 PM
Ray Rogers ,

Who are they ? How can ı contact with them ?

Ray Rogers
08-28-2008, 07:46 PM
...
For analysis, you need Scanning Electron Micrographs of the emulsion, along with X ray Diffraction and EDS data analysis for elements present. Even so, such work would miss Iridium, Osmium, Rhodium and probably Mercury, Cadmium?, and Sulfur + Gold levels. It would also miss any organic stabilzers and sensitizing dyes unless extremely precise Vapor Phase Chromatography or suchlike were done. An analysis could take several thousand dollars and weeks of my time analyzing the data.
...
You could use conventional film as Land did and formulate a single use goo. Then you could process in the dark using a paper you coated with a Carey Lea silver colloid.

PE

I agree.

I think the analyses of photographic material are over-rated.
Usually there are more than one way of doing things and there is little need to exactly replicate the process...
much more important is the behaviour.

Mustafa Umut Sarac
08-28-2008, 08:02 PM
I wrote to Intertek. They have labs all over the world.
I think keeping the analysis at your hand is good subject for DIY book.
Ron , I will ask you more on the subject after first recontact with them.

Ray Rogers
08-28-2008, 08:09 PM
Ray Rogers ,

Who are they ? How can ı contact with them ?

For general information on a public forum, all I can say is that most researchers publish their work. You can find out who has done what by watching the professional publications of universities and professional organizations. There are also professional laboratories that will undertake research but I would not go that way unless they had had extensive experience with photographic material.

I must say that I have not read your posts carefully yet and have only just briefly glanced at this thread, so I do not really know what it is you want to do, nor why.

Under these conditions I can do little more than to ask you to PM me with more info.

Photo Engineer
08-28-2008, 08:13 PM
Mustafa;

I could probably make a "Polaroid" using a conventional commercially available film and a published monobath. I could not really duplicate the colloidal silver and reciever sheet well, as it is too complex. If you wish me to stop work on R&D on easy emulsions and on the book, then I might be able to do this, but you must realize that I've got a lot going on here and really have no interest in a "dead" product like this. I've developed a functional Azo paper when people are crying for Azo and no one has really beaten a path to my door. The workshops are underbooked and the interest is generally low notwithstanding the response on APUG.

In point of fact, film production at Kodak is still gently ratcheting downward a bit at a time every month. This is due to gradually lowering sales. It is really a very sad situation. And, I want to complete the job of making a handful of useful easy B&W emulsions for the home emulsion maker.

PE

Photo Engineer
08-28-2008, 08:19 PM
This is becoming a rehash of the thread David refers to above. The emulsion is obviously derived somehow from a Kodak product, and Land probably reverse engineered it. His people were very good about these things as they had to start from scratch.

Even if you contact the Chinese, you have to know what to look for and you have to interpret the results. The analyses must be sensitive to values lower than 10^-6 moles / mole of silver or 1 mg / mole of silver. Those are tiny amounts when you consider how accurate you must be, or how large a sample you must use.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac
08-28-2008, 08:32 PM
I gave 20 years to zildjian to understand it.
Now I am faster.
I learned sem costs 200 dollars in Istanbul.
I and researchers would not have any experience to do it to a film.
You will tell me , I will tell them.
What kind of SEM we have to use ? There are two types.
Do we need to coat the sample ?
How we will see the layers ? Do we have to cut the polaroid and look from the side or can we look from the top of the surface and see the layers ?
Do we need darkness ?

Photo Engineer
08-28-2008, 08:46 PM
You must dissolve the emulsion from the support by some means that does not destroy the emulsion and then you must make carbon replicas of the grains. The SEM photographs the carbon replicas. EDS done on the grains themselves will give elemental distribution. XRD will give more data on elemental composition depending on the angle of "view". These can all be done from 1 sample with a few sheets of film. I suggest Takamine to dissolve the gelatin, but beware that Takamine is very toxic and harmful to humans.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac
08-28-2008, 08:53 PM
Is there a paper or book on seperation of emulsion and making carbon replicas of the grains ?
Do you want to tell me or do you have a friend at Kodak who can tell me ?

Photo Engineer
08-28-2008, 09:32 PM
No, there is no text book and no, no one at Kodak would tell you, however this is not an unknown methodology to chemists. The problem is, having the information you intend to get, who will then make the emulsion for you and who will make the coatings and assemble the materials to produce the picture? This is an even bigger problem.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac
08-28-2008, 09:46 PM
I am not interested in making emulsion , I am interested in gathering information. I will learn many things from this research and this is better than sex for me :)

Ray Rogers
08-28-2008, 09:51 PM
I am not interested in making emulsion , I am interested in gathering information. I will learn many things from this research and this is better than sex for me :)

So, how much are you willing to pay for a good time?

Mustafa Umut Sarac
08-28-2008, 10:01 PM
I will pay all the analysis expenses . SEM cost 200 here and I think china can do cheaper better. Making carbon replicas is a thing I never heard.
Ray , Can you say something for that ? May be biologists use these kind of copies ???
Anyone who knows something about it ?

Mustafa Umut Sarac
08-28-2008, 10:10 PM
Hmmm I understood now. Samples would be needed to coated . Carbon coated in vacuum and than recorded !
Is it correct ?

Photo Engineer
08-28-2008, 10:24 PM
You would take existing film packs and analyze them.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac
08-28-2008, 10:29 PM
Ron , Istanbul University writes that carbon coating is used with x ray backscatter SEM research.
What will researcher look to at this research with SEM ? Layers , their thicknesses ?
Elektron Microprobe Analysis ? Do you want this ?