I am looking to buy a bicycle and need some advice.
Its main focus would be to be driven in the city but of course here in Crete there is always the possibility of uneven pavement and dirt.
My budget is between 300-500 euros, so something economical.
I don't need for it to be folding or anything else exotic.
I went to a local bicycle shop and asked about six bicycles ranging from 220 to 450 euros (with 10% discount included).
The top one was the Ideal Zig Zag.
It had a good alluminium frame, good suspension system, good brakes at the front and some extras like level gear changing system and easier maintenance.
The bottom one was another Ideal, which as almost nothing except gears (no suspension, no alluminium,etc).
One city bicycle I looked at, I found the wheel to be very thin, especially compared to the mountain Ideal, but had a 150 euros difference in price (ofcourse with other things included not just the wheel size).

Can someone help me out?
I know nothing about bicycles so I need some education.

Are the Ideal good bicycles? How about that Zig Zag?
http://www.idealbikes.net/bike.php?bike=123
Anything else from that manufacturer you can suggest?

Please don't point me to exotic and brands that I won't be able to find here.
But feel free to ask a million questions.

Go to several bike shops to have the sales people educate you.

I have no idea what brand bicycles are sold in Greece.

First off, how the bike fits is close to more important than anything else, next is weight.

If the majority of your riding will be on pavement, even poor pavement, you'll want smooth-treaded tires rather than the knobbys that are common for mountain bikes. That's an easy switch to make though, so don't make the bike choice depend on the tires on the one you look at.
Aluminum is the most common frame material these days, but a steel frame bike can be a little more comfortable, as steel absorbs shock better than aluminum. Weight will be about the same until you get to the exotic stuff that you can't afford.

Will you be carrying the bike up stairways, etc? Do you plan to add racks, etc. to haul gear? What's the longest ride you envision? How long will your routine rides be?
What is the terrain like where you'll be riding? - hilly, flat, steep hills?

I don't know the Ideal brand, but the Zig Zag looks reasonable, I don't know what brands one would expect to find there.
Here's some stuff to look at;
http://www.gtbicycles.com/grc/eng/Products/Road/Fitness-Commuter/#2622
Surly makes steel frame bikes and this one is at the very top end your budget, assuming you could even buy one there, but I'll thow it in here for comparison;
http://www.surlybikes.com/crosscheck_comp.html They do have some single-speed bikes that would fit price-wise, but that assumes your terrain is pretty flat.

Bianchi would be good to look at, and perhaps Giant.

Here's a good source for some general information that may help.
http://sheldonbrown.com/beginners/index.html

Go to several bike shops to have the sales people educate you.

I have no idea what brand bicycles are sold in Greece.

Thank you, that was a most helpful post.
I wouldn't have thought of asking in the bicycle shops by myself.

Thank you BDial.

Will you be carrying the bike up stairways, etc?
No, I won't. Unless they are part of my course.

Do you plan to add racks, etc. to haul gear?

A rack in the back and maybe a basket in the front will be essential.

What's the longest ride you envision? How long will your routine rides be?

Distances here in the city are very small.
My routine would be five-ten minutes max and most of the time I can do that on foot, so the bicycle is not essential a lot of times. But, with a bicycle I might be able to go to places that would be too far on foot and too close for a car, so maybe, assuming I can beat my fear of the traffic, I can take it to the beach or inland, twenty-thirty minutes car ride.

What is the terrain like where you'll be riding? - hilly, flat, steep hills?
The terrain certainly isn't flat here and there are steep up and downs in some places, but most of the time I think, is mostly flat. I am planning not to tax myself too much with my rides.

About the tires, how different in feeling are the thin city ones compared with the thicker mountain types?
Since I don't live in Amsterdam or New York, or London, I don't want to limit myself in just the pavement, that's why I am thinking of mountain tires. I am not a very sporty kind of a guy, not do I often go on excursion (or do I envision myself going), so its a big possibility that I will mostly stick to the pavement. Then again...

Do I also need the disc brakes considering the small distances, that I won't be running very fast and that bicycles are generally easy to brake compared to motorbikes?

There are city tires that have tread plenty thick enough to deal with hazards, I use one of these; http://two-wheels.michelin.com/2w/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=2092004115348&codePage=2092004115348_10092004150436&lang=EN on the bike I use for foul weather and bad roads.
The knobby tires are good for traction on soft dirt, but they aren't very efficient on pavement. Since you won't be racing around on dirt, a heavy-duty city tire will be fine most likely. There are also tires like these; http://two-wheels.michelin.com/2w/front/affich.jsp?codeRubrique=2092004115348&codePage=2092004115348_10092004150450&lang=EN whch are sort of a hybrid approach, the main part of the tread is flat for pavement, but the edges have knobs to grip while cornering in dirt.

If you want to add a rack, or fenders it will be easier if the frame has mounting points built-in. I can't tell if the Zig-Zag does. For example, this Bianchi has mounts; http://www.bianchiusa.com/08_rubino.html

Do I also need the disc brakes considering the small distances, that I won't be running very fast and that bicycles are generally easy to brake compared to motorbikes?

If you have good rim brakes vs good discs, the discs will slow you down a bit better. The main advantage to discs is in the rain.

Ari, I was out and shooting with my Razzle 4x5 on my pushbike today. Some of the things that I find nice are a saddle that is sprung either via the saddle itself, or through the post the saddle sits on has a bit of suspension.

The ability to adjust the front stem that the handlebars are attached to, can really make the bike more suitable and comfortable to ride.

Tyres of all sorts are available, perhaps one type you may wish to try is the one where the centre of the tyre is like a road tyre, but the edges have knobs for traction and stability like knobby tyres. I have full knobs on my tyres but a friend has the combination and having ridden it a few times think I'll be switching to that type when my current ones wear out.

As for brakes, well the centre pull rim brakes are quite adequate for what I would call normal riding and a reasonable amount of spirited riding. Going down a steep hill at 50 km/hr is the only time I feel I would like better brakes, especially when it's a long hill.

Are there secondhand bicycles available? Usually there are and they can be an excellent way to try without outlaying too much dosh.

Certainly the size of the bike in relation is the most important aspect and something you should ask the bike shops to inform you more about. The lower end of the market, which is where we are at, is slightly restricted, but not too bad.

Basically push bikes come in frame sizes, my wife and I have the same model of bike, but I have one frame size larger than hers. We can both ride each others bike very easily, but the relationship of the seat, bars and wheel crank where the pedals are located are not quite right, compared to our own machines.

The more questions you ask, the more you will learn.

Mick.

Why not look for something like this ?

http://www.bianchi.com/common/products2008/images/Milano_RC/Y8B74.jpg

This is a completely contemporary bike, built on traditional principles. It will climb mountains, and look great at the cafe while you sip something cool. Get a basket and a light. And send us pictures.

http://www.bianchi.com/en/products2008/Milano_Y8B74.aspx

Disc brakes are popular because they easy to manufacture and expensive. They work well in the wet, work poorly in the dirt, and offer no advantage at all to the rider... except to some racers, and to all the salesman. The parallels to photography are absolute.

Tires: the Bianchi comes with good, general purpose tires.
Makers such as Schwalbe make a range of tires to suit any kind of need. They are a European firm, and will be readily available to you.

AND with any luck you can find a splendid used bike (with 650b tires)
that will be perfect --- !

good luck !

attached, my bike on my island... but not a cafe in sight !

don

If you have good rim brakes vs good discs, the discs will slow you down a bit better. The main advantage to discs is in the rain.


Not true. V-brakes on aluminium rims are better than discs.

Ari, if you only intend riding in the city a good entry level hybrid (http://www.ctcshop.com/product.jsp?style=87572) with a suspension seat post should do you. Full suspension, discs and all the other gimmicks just add weight to the bike and are unnecessary in town.

But feel free to ask a million questions.

I see people have been doing just that. Here's another thing to consider (and now I notice a lack of my English skills when it comes to "bike parts"...):

The chain is "out in the open", as is the "gear cassette". As is common for MTB/ATB and racing bikes. If your main purpose is riding in the city, why not get a bike with er... the different gear system (built into the back wheel, no gears showing) and a fully enclosed chain? I think that will save you some hours of maintenance (regularly cleaning the chain and the gears). Time well spent on photography.

Just my EUR 0,02. Having said that, only one of my 3 bikes (hey, what did you expect for a Dutchman? 3 bikes per person is an absolute minimum :) ) has this "maintenance-free" design, but that is indeed my city bike.

Hub gears cost a fortune. Take a look at Thorn cycles (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/models.html). Their bikes with a standard deraillieur and cassette cost betwenn £750 to £1999. Add Rohloff hub gears and those prices increase by about £900.

Not true. V-brakes on aluminium rims are better than discs.

Ari, if you only intend riding in the city a good entry level hybrid (http://www.ctcshop.com/product.jsp?style=87572) with a suspension seat post should do you. Full suspension, discs and all the other gimmicks just add weight to the bike and are unnecessary in town.

Even vs something like Juicy 9's?

Ari, if you get a fixed gear track bike, you only need a front brake.

Even vs something like Juicy 9's?


Yup.

Phew, thank you all!
So many things to consider...
Ok, so I probably don't really need disc brakes.
Bikes for 300 euros still have suspension so there is no reason to "deny" it.
The wheel... I hope I can find one with the hybrid type, but I am still leaning towards the mountain wheel. Wheels aren't cheap to buy new sets and I want to have the option to go off road if needed. Bikes can go to places no car can, even the family jeep, so many times I considered driving the jeep to one place with the bicyle in the back, leaving the car somewhere and continuing with the bicyle. There are places I wanted to photograph from that I can't leave the car anywhere near.
Crete is very mountainous and has some really rough parts. At the same time I don't really do landscape photography so off road is not my main focus and I will mostly drive it on pavement. Yet unlike my friend Kraker here, I don't live in a dutch city and the roads and terrain are not kind to bike riders so I want to keep my options open.
Like a camera, one has to try out a bicyle to know if it fits right, but of course that's not that easy.
I know two stores in the city, I am sure there are more. They don't seem to be great though. They have very limited selection and the one I went to didn't like answering questions and just wanted me to buy the most expensive because it was "just better." But, unfortunately I am limited to them. I don't even consider going to Athens then somehow bringing the bicyle back. So, I have to take what I find.
The Bianchi looks nice but they don't even have a greek distributor.
I've seen GT bicyles around here before.
Ideal have a couple city models that have the seat much lower than the handles, which looks like something a Dutchman would ride on the city, looking like a comfortable yet "slow" position. I won't be going for that, but my comfort is a high priority. I wouldn't like a racer type of position with the whole body arched forward. The mountain one seems like a good in-between.

As a side note, I will be using it to carry photography equipment and I consider my two Billingham bags on a rack on the bicyle back or on my back. Full of equipment, they must weight from two to maybe five kilos. Anything larger (like strobes) wouldn't be possible to carry with a bicycle anyway. I wonder if one can strap a manfrotto carbon tripod somewhere...

As a side note, I will be using it to carry photography equipment and I consider my two Billingham bags on a rack on the bicyle back or on my back. Full of equipment, they must weight from two to maybe five kilos. Anything larger (like strobes) wouldn't be possible to carry with a bicycle anyway. I wonder if one can strap a manfrotto carbon tripod somewhere...

It is unlikely a full suspension bike will have the required braze-ons for racks and panniers.

"Bikes for 300 euros still have suspension so there is no reason to "deny" it."

I personally wouldn't get cheap suspension as it doesn't do much, and it weighs down the bike.

Here's a large selection from a roadside in South Dakota. PM me for directions.

Once you start carrying any sort of weight,
and wanting to move comfortably under your own power
you've changed all the criteria. Few bikes, especially the fancy go fast bikes, road or mountain,
are worth a tinkers damn when you carry cameras.

Look at Thorn, as Andy suggests. They will offer bikes that are made to carry you and your stuff,
enjoyably. You definitely need an 'old fashioned' bike.

And 'suspension' is a red herring. Cushy tires can go fast,
and soak up the road shock. Cheaper, better, faster.

I have to admit that I am overwhelmed.
I will try to find a couple people that ride bicyles here and ask them at least at which store to go to.
I went out a few minutes ago and went to a couple stores that are close to me. I noted down the brands
and models that were on display. Ideal seems to be the most popular (ZigZag, Spark, Crosser and Daily), but
also I've found Specialized and Mongoose, but none of the ones you mention. They all looked very similar.

Off topic:
While I was coming back from my bicycle store tour, I've heard some greek rembetika music coming from a coffee shop, saw that it was a small band rehearsing, went home, got my Rolleiflex and went to meet them burning three rolls of HP5+. Those are the moments that make living in this city worthwhile...

If the majority of your riding will be on pavement, even poor pavement, you'll want smooth-treaded tires rather than the knobbys that are common for mountain bikes.[/url]

You can get knobbly tyres with a central smooth section which makes riding on roads easier.



Steve

Not true. V-brakes on aluminium rims are better than discs.

I have never seen what the attraction is with disc brakes on a bike other than the fact that they look cool.

Mechanically they are a worse design than V brakes as the leverage forces on the brake components near the centre of the wheel are a lot higher than those at the edge of the wheel.


Steve.

It's been a number of years since I visited Crete and I must admit I saw very few cyclists but I'd be surprised if there isn't a cycling club in the capital city or at least a couple of clubs on the island. If so I'd make contact with them. There will be the APUG equivalent of cycling.

My experience in the U.K. with bikes is that the majority are over geared so I'd look for one with very low gearsand a three ring chainwheel. You can't have too many gears and you can't go too low either in my opinion. Big gears are for professional riders and "marketing men " appealing to the "macho" element in potential buyers who fancy themselves as Tour de France riders. Suspension is probably over-rated, especially takng into account its cost and its weight. A gel filled saddle and a saddle post which has a spring element built in is a good alternative.

Unless you intend to do a lot of off road cycling "nobbly" tyres are very tiring to use. They take a lot more effort for the same speed as smooths tyres so go for smooth ones.

There's a downside of course. You will be healthier and live a lot longer and therefore pay a lot more in subscriptions to APUG than most of the rest of us!

Time I got my Olmo Italian racing bike out again. On the hills I am Fausto Coppi and on the flat, Freddie Maertens.


pentaxuser

Not only that Steve, there have been many instances of disc brakes 'turning' wheels out of the ends of forks with forward facing dropouts due to the torsional force, resulting in serious injury to the rider.

Ari, look out for a bike called a Globe City 3.1. Its made by Specialized but designed for city use and luggage carrying.

I agree with Andy and the others that if possible, you should stay away from suspension and disk brakes.
You may want to consider a Brooks saddle though... http://www.brooksengland.com/ads/ad_2006.jpg