I would like to propose that apug members should be able to submit their camera/ enlarger, photo equipment manuals/user guides to this site. A small fee could be asked for as a donation or downloads could be only available to subscribers. Would this be a good idea?

I would think many such manuals would be subject to copyright restrictions.

I would think many such manuals would be subject to copyright restrictions.

Well how about a sticky thread with links to source of pdf documents for download.

Perhaps headings of FILMS, PAPERS, CAMERAS, ENLARGERS and anything else you can think of.

Sounds fine to me.

I would think many such manuals would be subject to copyright restrictions.

In my opinion the copyright no longer is in force when the manual isn't in print anymore for more then 10 years. This is of course not legal but the changes that a manual of an Agfa Isola II or meopta Flexaret IV for example will be reprinted is none to nothing. In a way companies should feel honored when somebody looks around for a PDF with a manual of a certain camera he wants to use, at least somebody is still treasuring that old piece of "junk".

From a legal perspective, copyright terms in most countries are for at least 70 years, often much more than that. The details vary from country to country, with the type of material, with who holds the copyright (an individual or a corporation), and probably with other factors. AFAIK, manuals aren't singled out for reduced copyright terms, so you should assume that anything newer than an 1800s box camera manual is under copyright. "Opinion" has nothing to do with it; it's a matter of law.

As a practical matter, I've seen many sites with camera manuals posted in HTML, PDF, or other formats, and I've yet to hear of any site being sued or asked to take down the material. OTOH, there is a risk factor. Some jerk at a camera company could cause a lot of headache to any site that hosts such materials. I'm sure that asking for money for the downloads would multiply that risk factor, since that would get the attention of corporate money-grubbers.

Overall, if I were running APUG, I'd be reluctant to host such material, and if I were to decide to do so, I would definitely not charge money for it. At least with no money changing hands there can be no claim of commercial gain from the copyright violation. OTOH, if people were to write and contribute new manuals, that's another matter.

These people run a business copying and selling copies of very recent as well as very old cameras and photo equipment.

http://www.oldtimercameras.com/

Since this would attract people to the site or offer a benefit to use the site and since the site sells ad space, has subscribers, and is profiting from the endeavor, it would be a risk to proceed without legal advise.

As it is now, one person offering to make a copy for another, directly, without involving APUG or any other site, while still violating the copyright laws, may not be worthwhile to tract down and go after, like they do in the music or movie business.

JMHO

I've found a couple of excellent sites that host user guides:

http://www.butkus.org/chinon/ Asks for a donation.

http://yandr.50megs.com/ Free.

If some company jerk would contact me to take things down I would say to him: Sure, I'll take it down, just send me a manual or 10 and I'll even pay for them. And of course he would not been able since it's long out of print. And that's the whole point behind it, if it's out of print, how the hell would you be able to get a manual in the first place. Sure, one could try his/her luck on the bay but changes are sometimes slim on there to find certain manuals.

I have often wondered about old timer cameras, they sell just about every manual you could wish for but I have never heard of them being taken to court. Are Nikon, Canon, Minolta, Pentax, Rollei, Mamiya etc. still interested in film cameras enough to supply manuals or user guides when requested? If the info was posted as pdf files free to apug subscribers what would be the problem?

If some company jerk would contact me to take things down I would say to him: Sure, I'll take it down, just send me a manual or 10 and I'll even pay for them. And of course he would not been able since it's long out of print. And that's the whole point behind it, if it's out of print, how the hell would you be able to get a manual in the first place. Sure, one could try his/her luck on the bay but changes are sometimes slim on there to find certain manuals.

Your (potential) frustration is understandable. My point is that copyright law is that: law. If you post infringing material, the copyright holder has the legal right to sue you. Whining and moaning about the unfairness of it in front of a judge might not get you out of paying a hefty fine.

As a practical matter, as I and others have said, there seem to be a lot of sources of downloadable camera manuals on the Internet. Thus, it appears that most manufacturers are either ignorant of this practice or (more likely) are turning a blind eye to it, since they've got no monetary stake in it. That state of affairs might or might not last, though. Sadly, copyright law as currently written makes few or no provisions for handling out-of-print works, so if push ever does come to shove, the camera manufacturers (or whoever actually owns the copyrights) will likely win in court. In the meantime, individuals and organizations that post or sell camera manuals are skating on thin ice, legally speaking. (At least, that's my understanding of it. I'm not a lawyer, but I do write books for a living, so I have a better-than-average understanding of copyright law.)

This non-US, non-GB site has a lot of good manuals, and will accept more:

http://manuelsphoto.free.fr

I'm proud to be a contributor of out of print manuals unavailable from the manufacturer.
My personal collection of Durst 8x10 pdf info is free for the asking.

If you OWN the equipment and the manufacturer is non-existent or won't sell you a manual, you are entitled to get the manual off the internet or from a friend, and if the laws don't reflect this concept of OWNERSHIP then they are WRONG and need to be changed. Your equipment came with the manual when new, and if it didn't that is a violation of consumer rights in some states.

If you OWN the equipment and the manufacturer is non-existent or won't sell you a manual, you are entitled to get the manual off the internet or from a friend, and if the laws don't reflect this concept of OWNERSHIP then they are WRONG and need to be changed.

I certainly agree that owners of equipment have a moral right to have a copy of the owner's manual for that equipment. Copyright law, however, is a pretty strange thing, and AFAIK, it makes no exemptions for issues such as manuals. Somebody holds the copyright to the manual -- perhaps the original company or some entity that bought the company's assets if it went out of business. (The copyright holder might not even realize that he/she/it is the copyright holder, though.)

FWIW, I'm all for making some rather drastic changes to copyright laws -- they've become much too strict and deny ordinary consumers too many rights. This issue is just one example. I just want to be sure that people realize that posting manuals without the copyright holder's permission is illegal in most countries. Chances are you'll get away with it, but that doesn't make it any less illegal. If you want it not to be illegal, then work for copyright reform.

Your equipment came with the manual when new, and if it didn't that is a violation of consumer rights in some states.

I don't know much about what state consumer rights laws say on this subject, but I doubt if they'd trump copyright laws, which are national and international in scope.

This non-US, non-GB site has a lot of good manuals, and will accept more:

http://manuelsphoto.free.fr
.................

Looks interesting except all I get when clicking on any manual the old 404 Error in some other language. Tried both Firefox & IE.

Maybe it is down temporally. I will try again later.

http://www.butkus.org does it for the right reasons and only ASKS for a donation. I have given him a $5 USD donation every time I downloaded a useful manual and he has always thanked me via email for the donation.

Personally, I'd check with him and upload to his site if you want to make it available. Oh and drop him a buck or two.

As Sean can tell you, it ain't cheap to do this stuff...