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John McCallum
12-27-2004, 03:35 PM
I think that's a good suggestion. Perhaps Jim might be comfortable letting the reins go to someone else for a little while, just to keep the momentum going(?)
I'd like to participate, if the exchange were to continue going again.

oriecat
12-27-2004, 04:00 PM
I really like the idea behind this exchange. I would also like to join up if someone gets it going again. I would be happy to help in any way I can.

mikeb_z5
12-27-2004, 06:44 PM
I too would like to join in on this one :)

Jeremy
12-27-2004, 10:40 PM
I think this would be fun and would be willing to moderate if need be (though Kevin seems to have stepped forward).

Just a note about the print exchange groups:

For each of my groups (I have been in rounds 2 & 3) we had a total of 4 people which meant I only had to submit 3 prints total.

One idea I think we might want to implement is that everyone mail their print to the moderator along with an extra self addressed and postmarked envelope. This way the moderator would shuffle the prints around to a randomly drawn system (lots of free random number generators on the net), put the prints in the different envelope, and then drop them off at the post office. This would GUARANTEE that if you submitted a print that you would receive one back. This seems to be a problem with the group exchange. This would be more work for the moderator which is why I said I would be willing to do so. Because of the cost of shipping to and from the moderator, those outside of North America might not want to join in such an endeavor.

Another option, would be to just include $1.75 with your print and I could buy a huge box of 11x14 envelopes from Sams to use for the shipping so we wouldn't have to worry about the hassle of packing an extra envelope in. 1st class shipping in the US for one of the bubble-padded 11x14 envelopes with an 8x10-11x14 print and two sheets of matboard or cardboard backing is ~$1.60 and the rest would be used to offset the envelope cost.

This is just an idea as I have been a part of a number of exchanges and there are always a few who ruin it for the rest by never sending prints whether out of extenuating circumstances or not, it's always a let-down.

gr82bart
12-27-2004, 11:40 PM
I've been reading these threads with interest and I'd like to join this one too. Heck, if I'm going in the dark again, I'm going all the way baby!

Art.

Ole
12-28-2004, 01:18 AM
... Because of the cost of shipping to and from the moderator, those outside of North America might not want to join in such an endeavor.
...

Cost of shipping notwithstanding, I'm in. As always.

oriecat
12-28-2004, 01:45 AM
I think part of the allure of this type of exchange is its simplicity and not having to deal with mailing to a moderator etc (at least for me, having been the moderator for a group exchange on another forum). Maybe it just needs to be structured so that people should only sign up when they actually have a print to send out, that way people won't send one and not get one back. Example: post a notice at the beginning of January, ok people blind exchange happening, have your print ready by the third week. Beginning of the third week, anyone with a print ready posts, saying I'm ready and in, then the mod can jumble the names and PM the info, and please have everything mailed by the end of the month...

kwmullet
12-28-2004, 02:09 AM
Yeah... I gotta say that risk of getting 'stiffed' by someone not sending in their print not withstanding, I can't think of a mail-through-moderator scheme that doesn't suck a lot of the joy of simplicity out of this particular blind exchange.

An alternative to defining pairs did occur to me, however. Once the list of participants is defined, and everyone commits to making one /something/ (drug store print, contact sheet, contact print, proof, custom print) and sending it somewhere (possibly another country), then the moderator would randomize the list of people and send each of them a PM with the name/address of the NEXT person on the random list, with the last person on the list getting the name of the first person on the list. That way, no one except the moderator would know from whom they should receive a print -- only to whom they should send their print. Once the sending month + a week has passed, anyone who hasn't received a print will notify the moderator who will exempt those who committed to send a print but didn't from the next round or two of the blind exchange, during which time they would hopefully resolve any issues that prevented them from getting their prints out.

If I end up being moderator for this, I might cook up a few extra postcards from each round of the postcard exchange to send them to anyone who got stiffed in the blind exchange so at least those who didn't get a print would get *something*.

thoughts?

-KwM-

Jeremy
12-28-2004, 07:19 AM
No problem, it was just a thought to keep people from getting stiffed. If that's too much trouble, I'll volunteer to send to an extra print or two if someone doesn't receive one--Kevin you just let me know and I'll provide some extras.

I'm in, also.

Jim Chinn
12-28-2004, 09:58 AM
Sorry I have not replied to this thread before now, but I encourage anyone who wants to collect and send out names go for it. I simply asked for people to submit addresses by PM and then tried to pair everyone up to a diferent partner, keeping in mind the costs of sending overseas.


Originally there was no obligation too participate every time. I would Email or Pm participants each time to find out if they were in that time around. Once I knew who wanted to exchange I would send each particpant a mailing address. When someone new wanted to join I would ask permission to send out his address.

In looking back it would be easier to just to post a list of names and addresses on a secure page on APUG and then just let everyone know who there exhange partner was every time. Sean offered to set up a page for me, but that was about the time personal matters started taking up all my time.

You really need to provide an option for people to skip exchanges. It makes it user friendly for everone. When two new people join you start them off together. If you have an odd number someone will always volunteer to send two prints to not leave anyone out.

For our European friends one way to keep shipping costs down is to encourage other European APUGers to join. The more participants on your side of the pond the fewer times in a year you would need to send overseas.

Maybe others have some ideas to help defray costs for members in South America, Africa, Asia/Far East.

Jim Moore
12-28-2004, 11:57 AM
Count me in for this exchange if it gets going again.

I would also like address the issue of getting 'stiffed'.

It is a given that when you get this many people together to do something like this you are bound to get a few dead-beats that have no intention of sending something out in exchange for what they received.

This is a risk that you take when doing something like this. To me the rewards are much, much greater than the risk. The beautiful work that I have received form fellow APUGers far outweights the "loss" of a couple of prints that I have sent out and not received one in return.

My 2 Cents.....

Jim

matt miller
12-28-2004, 12:45 PM
Does it really happen that often, getting "stiffed" I mean? That surprises me quite a bit, given the nature of most of the participants here.

Please count me in on this exchange as well. I'm involved in my first print exchange right now & it's pretty cool.

kwmullet
12-28-2004, 01:22 PM
Sorry I have not replied to this thread before now, but I encourage anyone who wants to collect and send out names go for it.

Thanks, Jim. That's terrific.

I simply asked for people to submit addresses by PM and then tried to pair everyone up to a diferent partner, keeping in mind the costs of sending overseas.

My initial thought is that the value of exchanging prints within a larger pool of participants outweighs the added cost of sending one print overseas.

Originally there was no obligation too participate every time. I would Email or Pm participants each time to find out if they were in that time around. Once I knew who wanted to exchange I would send each particpant a mailing address. When someone new wanted to join I would ask permission to send out his address.

You really need to provide an option for people to skip exchanges. It makes it user friendly for everone.

I don't think anyone has suggested compulsory participation. I think I might have given that impression though by suggesting that folks who promise sending a print and don't for some reason should be left out of one cycle. I didn't mean for that to imply that anyone else would be required to participate.

When two new people join you start them off together. If you have an odd number someone will always volunteer to send two prints to not leave anyone out.

For our European friends one way to keep shipping costs down is to encourage other European APUGers to join. The more participants on your side of the pond the fewer times in a year you would need to send overseas.

Maybe others have some ideas to help defray costs for members in South America, Africa, Asia/Far East.

I think encouraging members outside the US to recruit membership within their own geographic area is a great idea, and ultimately, the best way to balance out the cost to participants outside the continental US.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

Here are my starting ideas about how I'd be inclined to moderate the blind exchange. If no one has any serious objections or suggestions for other moderators, I'd be happy to moderate the blind exchange for a while, until Jim decides he'd like to take it back or until another moderator wants to present h(im|er)self.

I'd like to take the lead from the postcard exchange and have the blind exchange run in three month cycles.


Month 1: members volunteer to participate.
Month 2: prints are made and sent.
Month 3: rest.


I suggest that each member who participates in the blind exchange agree to the following expectations of participants:



They will be asked to send one analog photography product by the last day of month 2 to a user whose name, userid and mailing address they will receive on APUG as a private message.
"analog photography product" could include a minilab print from a slide or negative, a polaroid print, a handmade proof or custom print, a contact sheet , slide or alt process print. I'd also like to open up the possibilities to negatives, if someone wants to give up a negative for the exchange, it will give them a chance to do things like share the effects of different film/developer combinations or exposure approaches on the negative.
Each participant must supply a name and mailing address at which they can receive their product. Additionally, each participant agrees that their own name, userid and mailing address shall be released to other APUG members in the exchange.
Each participant acknowledges by joining that they might draw a name and address of an exchangee that is on the other side of the world, and they should be prepared to send their product that far.
If a participant commits to send a photo product out and for some reason , isn't able to send it out by the last day of month 2 in a cycle, they'll have to sit out a cycle while they attempt to resolve the issue(s) that prevented them from following through on their commitment.
If a participant doesn't receive their print by day 15 of month 3 in a cycle, they should PM the moderator, who will verify that the sender isn't able to send the product in a reasonable period of time, then if they aren't, drop their sender from elgibility for the next cycle and ask for volunteers to send a print to the member who didn't get a product.


Additionally, I think these are reasonable expectations of the moderator:



The moderator should randomize the list of participants, and ensure that a PM is sent to each participant by the 7th day of month 2 with the name, userid and mailing address of their intended recipient.
The moderator shall make a reasonable effort to provide as much circulation as possible within the list, and to ensure that once someone draws a given name, they won't draw the same name again for at least three cycles.


chew this over and let me know if this sounds good.

-KwM-

BWGirl
12-28-2004, 01:29 PM
Count me in, Kevin! I'll PM you later today with my address! Thanks for offering to moderator this in Jim's stead!

oriecat
12-28-2004, 01:32 PM
It sounds good to me, except:


If a participant doesn't receive their print by day 15 of month 3 in a cycle, they should PM the moderator, who will drop their sender from elgibility for the next cycle and ask for volunteers to send a print to the member who was stiffed.

I think the mod should first contact the delinquent sender and find out if it was sent and when. It could just be a delay. Check first, then drop em if necessary.

kwmullet
12-28-2004, 02:25 PM
It sounds good to me, except:
[...]
I think the mod should first contact the delinquent sender and find out if it was sent and when. It could just be a delay. Check first, then drop em if necessary.


Good point, oriecat. Re-reading that, it does seem a bit too anal. (:

-KwM-

kwmullet
12-29-2004, 12:35 PM
With the exception of updating the expectations above to incorporate requests and suggestions, I'll just hang idle on this thread until Friday or so to see if anyone says they'd rather be moderator themselves or they'd rather someone else be moderator. If that doesn't happen, I'll start a new thread, post the expectations and the beginnings of the initial participant list, ask Sean to make those messages in the thread sticky and we can start the clock on a new blind exchange cycle.

Cheers,

-KwM-

kwmullet
01-02-2005, 09:53 AM
Okay folks,

It sounds like no one so far has any real objections to the way I've outlined the exchange, and no one is more inclined to be moderator for now than I am, so I'll post a new thread and organize things a bit, make the initial list and we can go from there. Sound good?

See you later today, probably.

-KwM-