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Ray Rogers
09-04-2008, 10:15 PM
I still missed in in the one I quoted I guess.
Can you please give me page and line number...

Sure Kirk, no problem!

Page 1
Collumm 2
lines 91 & 92

(I knew that by rote!)

Ray

Ray Rogers
09-04-2008, 10:49 PM
Ray - you seem to quote yourself in sequential posts. What's up with that. It confuses me to see you having a conversation with yourself...

You think you it confuses you?

Since I was 9 I have been interested in the biochemistry of schizophrenia...
I figured it would be best if I could experience it first hand (!)
and I have been waiting a long long time for this!

Autually, this here is nothing more than an afterthought.

I once wrote a paper that dared to suggest that thought itself was a hallucination.

Well, we will be more careful in the future.

I promise.

That was X-Ray speaking.

HE has multiple personality disorder, not me.

In the words of Herman Hesse,
"Tell her I'm a schizophrenic!".

(I promise, too!)

Ray and his X-Ray

Kirk Keyes
09-05-2008, 12:12 AM
Sure Kirk, no problem!

Page 1
Collumm 2
lines 91 & 92

(I knew that by rote!)

Ray

Thanks. I stand corrected.

And I'm giong to have to ask for my money back from those speed reading/comprehension tapes!

wildbillbugman
09-05-2008, 05:31 PM
Would you be willing to sell a couple dozen milligrams of your dye?

Hi Kirk,
I still have not opened the vials of dyes. But when I do, I will weigh out what you want. I have decided that handeling these dyes merits an analytical balance. I have bid on one on Ebay and the auction ends in 3 days.
I calculate 19 cents per mg as my cost for the dye. I will not try to make a profit here. Just let me know how much you want. There are two dyes, one for green and one for red sensitization.
Regards,
Bill

Kirk Keyes
09-06-2008, 10:38 PM
Bill - good luck on you balance purchasing. They sure are nice to have if you want to measure small amounts.

wildbillbugman
09-09-2008, 11:49 AM
:confused:Hi Ron,
When you suggested SDA3057 and SDE8006 as spectral sensitization dyes I went ahead and ordered them at your word. Since I offered small samples at my cost to interested parties on this forum, I have received questions as to what, exactly, the dyes are. I receieved no paper information with these dyes and I wonder if you have any written data on these dyes, or if you know their chemical names.
Thanks,
Bill

Photo Engineer
09-09-2008, 01:41 PM
The company has refused to give me any data on these dyes, merely to tell me that they are green sensitizers. By testing, I found that one is a red sensitizer and had this confirmed by Paul Gilman, the Kodak expert on dyes. Sorry I cannot help you with structures. I have one partial ID on the red sensitizer. It is used in Kodachrome film!

They are generically probably cyanine dyes.

I have used both, but since the one marked green is really a red, I have fogged all emulsions eventually when using it due to my trusting nature. (BTW, it is a green sensitizer on Chloride and Bromide emulsions but not on Bromo Iodides due to J aggregate formation.)

PE

wildbillbugman
09-09-2008, 02:32 PM
OK Ray,
Now we both know what Ron knows about these dyes.
Bill

wildbillbugman
09-09-2008, 02:42 PM
Hi Kirk,
I wonder,do you have any sugestions as to other dyes, with published structures , that could be used as green and red sensitizers. I know of several candidates from my studies of the Lippman process and pan holography. But some of these dyes are hard to purchase due to company self imposed rules about selling "hazadous" chemicals to individuals.
I would hate to develope a panchtomatic emulsion, then learn that H.W.Sands has decided to discontinue it.
Regards,
Bill

wildbillbugman
09-09-2008, 02:44 PM
Sorry,
I ment to adress the last post to Ron. But mabe Kirk has some ideas.
Bill

Photo Engineer
09-09-2008, 02:45 PM
After spending all of that money on a gram each of 5 dyes that I tested, to get 2 good ones, I should have some data, but no, I don't. I was told flat out that this is not available. These dyes are not listed on their web site either AFAIK. So......

And, one of them was stamped with the warning (selenium containing dye) and Paul advised me against using it, so here it sits, a HAZMAT item that cost $100+ and unusable. Another was nearly totally insoluable in every solvent I tested! So, for my 6 dyes I got 2 "good" ones, one insoluable, one a HAZMAT item and I forget the status of #5. Oh, thats right, it didn't work! So much for that.

I have also tried a second source and have 4 more samples. I have not tested these as they must be treated with particular care (not caution), to get them to work. One must be titrated with trimethyl amine first and then dissolved in alcohol just to get it to work! I have not gotten around to that pain in the ****.

Ray, are you happy?

PE

Photo Engineer
09-09-2008, 02:48 PM
I should add that I found a source for an IR dye that could be used in experiments, but the company told me that it would only sell the dye in 1 Kg lots, as it has to be made to order, it goes bad rapidly and it would cost me $50,000 for the 1 kg bottle. :D

Nice deal. Right?

PE

Kirk Keyes
09-09-2008, 02:49 PM
If you look long and hard enough at the W.H. Sands web site, you can see that they have SDA3057 listed on a page that's headed with "Benzothiazoles" http://www.hwsands.com/productlists/benzothlist.htm and says it has a max abs. at 548 nm, an absorbtivity of 80,500, and a solubility of 1gm into30ml (MeOH).

For SDF8006 (I could not find SDE8006, so I'm assuming it's a typo), it has a graph of absorbance on this page http://www.hwsands.com/productlists/visible_dyes/visible_dyes.htm and it says max abs 559 nm, a solubility of 1gm into30ml (MeOH), and a black appearance. OK, no chemical family for that one...

Kirk Keyes
09-09-2008, 02:50 PM
Did you guys get MSDS sheets for your dyes? Maybe thay have chemical class listed on there?

Kirk Keyes
09-09-2008, 02:51 PM
$50,000 for the 1 kg bottle. :D

Nice deal. Right?

PE

You guys want to go in on it together? ;^)

Photo Engineer
09-09-2008, 02:55 PM
That gives absorbance when in solution and does not relate well to adsorbed spectral sensitivity. It also gives no structures. They didn't have that a while back. And, my bottle is labeled SDE8006. I just checked the original H. W. Sands bottle.

PE

Photo Engineer
09-09-2008, 03:00 PM
I got a spectral curve just as you see on their web site. It was sent via e-mail. Along with one of them was a very bad scan of a structure that was not decipherable due to the scan errors. I asked for a new copy and was told that the scan was sent in error and structural data were not available.

The selenium dye came in a glassine envelope, not a bottle and it came with a warning that it was a selenazole (IIRC). It remains untouched in that sealed glassine envelope in a sealed bag in my fridge. When Paul Gilman saw that, he told me that I didn't have the equipment to handle it as it was quite toxic. From the behavior of the other dye that gave red sensitization, and the partially corrupt scan, Paul was able to deduce a possible structure. I have not published it because of the element of doubt. However, its behavior in tests indicated it was correct and thats about it.

PE

Photo Engineer
09-09-2008, 03:12 PM
I looked at the bottle again, and it says SDE8006, but I looked at the data sheet and it is headed SDE8006 but the spectral curve has a label below it saying SDF8006. So, I guess they either changed their nomenclature or made several errors during sample prep and shipment. Your guess is as good as mine.

The note I looked at also warns me about the selenium dye.

PE

wildbillbugman
09-09-2008, 03:42 PM
Hi Ron,
Here is an obvious(to me) question. What is the advantage of SDE8006 over erythrosine. Both are green sensative dyes.

Photo Engineer
09-09-2008, 03:57 PM
Either is good, but the method of use is far different. If you use the same methods for each (either method), one works and the other one messes up the emulsion. Also, Erythrosine is less effective than SDE8006. The exact methods and levels of both dyes are described in the handouts.

PE