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Ray Rogers
09-11-2008, 05:43 AM
obsessive-compulsive ?

Oh Yea!

I am Guilty of that one too!

wildbillbugman
09-11-2008, 01:01 PM
Hi Everyone,but especialy Ron
www.holowold.com/holo/paper.html
The above refference is to a paper by Blyth,et al. It mentions 2 dyes for green and red sensitzation.
The rest of the paper is about making a holographic plate by diffusion. I assume that the silver/halide grains are so very tiny that the plate would be worthless to anything but holography. But would these dyes be apropriate for spectral sensitization of emulsions? One of the dyes is easy to get. But the other is on the Sigma-Aldrich "Don`t sell to individuals' list.
Cheers,
Bill

Kirk Keyes
09-11-2008, 03:17 PM
Bill - your link is bjorken, there's a typo - people should try this one instead:
http://www.holoworld.com/holo/paper.html

Kirk Keyes
09-11-2008, 04:19 PM
Well, for the list Ron posted, I see Neocyanine, Kryptocyanine, Pinacyanol, Orthochrome-T, Ethyl Red, Piniflavole, Eosin, and Eyrthrosine as ones that are listed in the IR book I mentioned above. So it looks like a lot of those dyes have found use that's lasted for over 100 years.

I also noticed 5-(p-Dimethylbenzylidene) rhodamine. That name looks really familiar, so I looked and checked CAS numbers, and it's also called 5-(p-Dimethylaminobenzylidene) rhodanine (notice the difference in the "n" and "m" in rhodanine/rhodamine). That an indicator that I use in the lab to titrate solutions of - get this - silver nitrate! The indicator is yellow in acetone solution, and when it reached the endpoint with silver nitrate, the solution becomes salmon color (under high pH of the titration).

It's pretty cheap - $60/10g
http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal/SEARCHRESULTS?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fprodwcsserver%3A9060 %2Fwebapp%2Fwcs%2Fstores%2Fservlet%2FSearch&searchPref=no&position=search&preferProd=unchecked&searchType=Rapid&catalogCode=RE_SC&keyWord=Dimethylaminobenzylidene+rhodanine+&catCode=ALL

Another, Congo Red - common indicator - $35/5g, or if indicator grade works, really cheap - $63/500g.
http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUCTDETAIL?productId=819687&catalogId=29104&pos=3&catCode=RE_SC&fromCat=yes&keepSessionSearchOutPut=true&brCategoryId=null&hlpi=y&fromSearch=Y

Ethyl Red Iodide - $70/5g,
http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUCTDETAIL?productId=624000&catalogId=29104&pos=1&catCode=RE_SC&fromCat=yes&keepSessionSearchOutPut=true&brCategoryId=null&hlpi=y&fromSearch=Y

Neocyanine - $83/1g
http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal/SEARCHRESULTS?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fprodwcsserver%3A9060 %2Fwebapp%2Fwcs%2Fstores%2Fservlet%2FSearch&searchPref=no&position=search&preferProd=unchecked&searchType=Rapid&catalogCode=RE_SC&keyWord=neocyanine&catCode=ALL

Kryptocyanine - $40/1g
http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUCTDETAIL?productId=817461&catalogId=29104&pos=1&catCode=RE_SC&fromCat=yes&keepSessionSearchOutPut=true&brCategoryId=null&hlpi=y&fromSearch=Y

1,1'-Diethyl-2,2'-cyanine Iodide - 500mg/$65.
http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal/PRODUCTDETAIL?productId=600345&catalogId=29104&pos=2&catCode=RE_SC&fromCat=yes&keepSessionSearchOutPut=true&brCategoryId=null&hlpi=y&fromSearch=Y

wildbillbugman
09-11-2008, 08:24 PM
Hi Kirk,
My guss is that Fisher will not sell all of these dyes to just anyone. Aldrich would not sell the Diethyl Cyanine Iodide to me,
no mater how well I explained to them what I intended to do with it. Mabe the Formulary could buy them, then resell to us at twice the price.
Bill
P.S. Sor ry about the ttypo. Ido t.hat al ot. No Spelche k here.

Ray Rogers
09-11-2008, 11:23 PM
I also noticed 5-(p-Dimethylbenzylidene) rhodamine. That name looks really familiar... an indicator that I use in the lab to titrate solutions of - get this - silver nitrate!


Kirk;

You might want to look on you shelf for "Stains All" too!

It is related to the dyes Ron mentioned- but off hand, I am not sure how effective it is... anyway it should be readily available to you!

Ray

dwross
09-11-2008, 11:24 PM
Here's some info that I hope will be useful, or at least entertaining.

http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/WhatsNew/whatsnew.htm

Kirk Keyes
09-11-2008, 11:56 PM
Ray - I've never heard of "Stains All" before - I ain't no stinkin biochemist - but it looks like a good candidate. And the price is similar to the others I've listed.

Kirk Keyes
09-12-2008, 12:01 AM
My guss is that Fisher will not sell all of these dyes to just anyone. Aldrich would not sell the Diethyl Cyanine Iodide to me,
no mater how well I explained to them what I intended to do with it.

Bill - try to find a local chemistry supply house that you can go to and talk with them directly. Are there any that you dealt with from your professional life? If you let them know you worked in the technical field you did, they my be a bit more compliant. I have a feeling that works for me with my local chem store - I'm been buying from them for 20 years, both professionally and for personal stuff.

They may be able to resell to you directly, and perhaps at a little less than having it shipped from Montana...

Kirk Keyes
09-12-2008, 12:13 AM
Here's some info that I hope will be useful, or at least entertaining.

http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/WhatsNew/whatsnew.htm

Denise - nice python (?) app, like google books. But they smaller size is unreadable/usable, at least on my laptop, and the large version does not seem to load.

The larger page shows this where the image should be:
<img src="/Map/Books/PhotoEmulsion/Contents1.jpg" "/>

Is there one too many quote marks at the end of the line?

Kirk

wildbillbugman
09-12-2008, 12:22 AM
With all the "meth labs" in my neck of these woods, you'd think that I could score some Diethyl cyanine iodide! I think I'll go over to "The Park" around 1:00AM and ask around.
Been nice knowing you all,
Bill

Kirk Keyes
09-12-2008, 12:24 AM
For those interested in spectra and related compounds, here's a nice local (Oregon) website that has a spectra of several dyes we might be interested in:
http://omlc.ogi.edu/spectra/PhotochemCAD/html/index.html

dwross
09-12-2008, 12:25 AM
Thanks for the beta test, Kirk! There was a typo in the code.

http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/WhatsNew/whatsnew.htm

Kirk Keyes
09-12-2008, 12:26 AM
I think I'll go over to "The Park" around 1:00AM and ask around.

Bill, if that doesn't work, try behind the school at 4:20...

Kirk Keyes
09-12-2008, 12:34 AM
Thanks for the beta test, Kirk! There was a typo in the code.


Denise - wow - that was quick. Maybe take another look. The larger pages are the same size as the smaller ones - about 1 inch high and about the same wide. But it does show an image for the larger page now.

Hologram
09-12-2008, 08:58 AM
Hi Everyone,but especialy Ron
www.holowold.com/holo/paper.html
The above refference is to a paper by Blyth,et al. It mentions 2 dyes for green and red sensitzation.

See also http://cabd0.tripod.com/holograms/id3.html
And here is a practical commercial applications of it: www.smartholograms.com/


The rest of the paper is about making a holographic plate by diffusion. I assume that the silver/halide grains are so very tiny that the plate would be worthless to anything but holography.

That's the billion Dollar question! I don't really know the answer but my guess is this method might be worth a try in the photographic area also. I assume forming larger grains won't be rocket science...
Personally, I am involved with holography, so I am far from being particularly knowledgeable about photographic emulsions.
These bathing/sensitizing methods have been known for quite a while now, actually since the early days of photography. They're often complicated and not easy to do in a consistent repeatable manner. Obviously, you can't use these methods to produce photographic emulsions on a large scale.That said, they may still be of value to test a few things in a quick way. Moreover, they don't require sophisticated lab technology, no pAg measurements, no double jets etc.

The beauty of Jeff Blyth's method is that it provides an incredible speed increase despite the lack of sulfur/gold sensitization. The big speed enhancement stems from ascorbic acid reduction sensitization, done simultaneously with spectral sensitization. That's pretty amazing. Blyth's method allows for speed levels almost on par with the Agfa materials (until the late 90s Agfa used to be the market leader for holographic emulsions) at a grain size 50% smaller than those commercial emulsions!

Hologram
09-12-2008, 09:02 AM
For those interested in spectra and related compounds, here's a nice local (Oregon) website that has a spectra of several dyes we might be interested in:
http://omlc.ogi.edu/spectra/PhotochemCAD/html/index.html

...and here are some interesting dyes:
www.organica.de/de/Produkte/49,Funktionale_Farbstoffe

and: www.few.de/English/index.htm

wildbillbugman
09-12-2008, 12:37 PM
I assume forming larger grains won't be rocket science..


Hi,
Jeff uses difussion to intoduce the silver nitrate into the gelain coating. Unless I am way off, the only way to vary grain sise would be to coat a pre-existing, larger grain silver halide emulsion on the glass, then then spectraly sensitize the coating with dyes + ascorbic acid.
Do you have a source for the dyes Jeff used ?
Bill

wildbillbugman
09-12-2008, 12:41 PM
I ment to say "spectraly sensitize by diffusion."
Bill

Kirk Keyes
09-13-2008, 01:02 AM
Thanks for the beta test, Kirk! There was a typo in the code.

http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/WhatsNew/whatsnew.htm

It's working really nice now, Denise.