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JOSarff
10-07-2008, 03:56 PM
Kirk--The web site doesn't say the strength, sorry.

Joe

Kirk Keyes
10-07-2008, 04:27 PM
Joe - did they have MSDS there for their products. I'm sure that would list it. I looked for them but I did not notice any.

Kirk Keyes
10-07-2008, 04:27 PM
Denise - I'm hoping to make plates and have them good for several (6 or more) months. So I've no issue with letting them cure for the week.

wildbillbugman
10-07-2008, 08:52 PM
[QUOTE=Hans2008;690916]SigmaAldrich has it.

Sigma-Aldrich will "take you to the cleaner`s" They do with all chemicals and are a "last resort". B&S get their amino-silane from HIS Glassworks. You can buy it directly from HIS G.
Their are silanes made with all of the standard active groups, including epoxy,di-amine and on and on. The Chinese get realy creative with them.
Go to Union Carbide and/or Dow Cemical 9or Dow Corning, I forget which) For an assortment of these little miricles of modern chemistry.
Cheers,
Bill

JOSarff
10-08-2008, 12:51 PM
B&S didn't have the silane MSDS. I found this one (attached pdf) and sent Dana Sullivan a copy.

He called his supplier and the woamn he spoke with was less than helpful and didn't know the concentration.

Vaughn
10-08-2008, 01:30 PM
Sounds like real nasty stuff -- I may have to order some and give it a try! (for using glass as a final support in the carbon process.) But Bill's method on the Light Farm site does sound more sane.

Vaughn

Kirk Keyes
10-08-2008, 02:04 PM
I've seen Bill clean glass, and it looked like it works really well. Regular household products that everyone is used to dealing with.

And my kitchen was even cleaner when he was finished than when he started - all the tile sparkled! ;^)

Photo Engineer
10-08-2008, 02:16 PM
The MSDS says it all. I avoid this material due to the decomposition products when it contacts water. It is not so good itself either.

If you wish to use it, use I suggest goggles, lab coat, gloves and old clothes. Wash the clothes and lab coat after use.

There are better ways.

PE

wildbillbugman
10-08-2008, 02:45 PM
Hi,
The way in which I use amino-silane is not to paint glass with it. I do a controled chemical reaction under a fume hood. I stoped applying it directly to glass a long time ago. That method works sometimes and sometimes not.
I agree with Ron. There are better ways to prevent frilling and emulsion lifting from glass. The best of which is proper cleaning of the glass.
Bill

wildbillbugman
10-08-2008, 06:31 PM
Hi Vaughn,
I am not doing carbon right now, but my friend who dose carbon on glass dumps a s**t-load of 5% amino -silsne on the glass. He used 4 coats without whipeing. He gets good results that way. But I think that even he has abandoned silane in favore of other things.
Bill

wildbillbugman
10-08-2008, 06:51 PM
Vaughn,
I just went over my old emails from my friend who dose carbon on glass. His "secret" is a coating of 3% 250 bloom gelatin with glyoxal for crosslinking. He coats this onto the clean glass and then applies the carbon tissue.
Bill

Vaughn
10-08-2008, 07:05 PM
Thanks, Bill. My comment on using the silane was half serious/half tongue-in-cheek. It is tempting to try it, but I really don't need another toxic chemical to deal with. My normal gelatin is just the softer Knox Unflavoured Gelatin -- bloom is probably closer to 100. I know PE does not like the stuff, but it makes great carbons prints for me. Would using the KUG and Potassium alum work as well as the 250 bloom and glyoxal? I have heard that the glyoxal tends to yellow (if my memory serves me right). I don't mind waiting the time it takes for the alum to do its thing.

And about the alum...I have Potassium alum, Potassium chrome alum (or Chrome alum -- can't remember which right now and I am not near my supplies). Any better to use one over the other?

Vaughn

I am assuming that I would have to use a hardener, since I will eventually be developing the glass/carbon tissue sandwich in 120F water for 15 minutes. But I still might try to transfer the carbon tissue directly onto super-cleaned glass and skip the intermeate coating step.

wildbillbugman
10-08-2008, 08:17 PM
Would using the KUG and Potassium alum work as well as the 250 bloom and glyoxal? I have heard that the glyoxal tends to yellow (if my memory serves me right).

And about the alum...I have Potassium alum, Potassium chrome alum (or Chrome alum -- can't remember which right now and I am not near my supplies). Any better to use one over the other?

Vaughn

Vaughn,
Sorry Vaughn, I just don't know the answere to these questions. PE has said that, for glass only, chrome alum is perffered over glyoxal. I do not know anything about discoloration of either. My last "big idea" concerning tissue was to make a Pt/Pd tissue. Did a few experements, then let it go,probably for the best considering the cost!
Happy Tissueing,
Bill

Photo Engineer
10-08-2008, 08:52 PM
I have been informed by good authority that Chrome Alum (the blue stuff!) is best for plates. It is ionic and tends to bond better with glass. I have tested Chrome Alum and CA + Glyoxal, and they work for me. The old timers used CA exclusively for everything and then to CA for plates and Glyoxal for subbed film and paper.

Glyoxal has been reported to yellow, but it was used almost exclusively in many products in the early part of the 20th century and they seem to hold up well. I have been using it for 5 years or more with no problem. However, remember that these early reports were with products that used egg albumen mixed with gelatin and also with milk. All of these changes would have to be put into the equation before making a judgment.

PE

Vaughn
10-09-2008, 01:47 AM
Thanks, PE...I'll check the labels of the Alum I have in the morning and see what I got -- don't remember any of it being blue, though! Some of it will be 30+ years old.

Bill -- the price of platinum is dropping...but that still would be pretty expensive Jello!

Vaughn