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kpdubbs
12-11-2008, 06:49 PM
Hello all Utahns,
I am new to the LF game, in fact I don't even have the gear yet (it's on its way), but via internet research, I find myself very intrigued by alternative processing(van dyke, plat+pall, albumen). The enormous array of possible papers and procedures and varying looks seems to be the ultimate in the analog photographic process. However, one catch, these processes all seem to involve an enormous amount of water consumption: washing of the pre developed paper, washing of the post developed paper, etc. This doesn't seem very conducive to this region's biosphere, and being an environmental science major, I was hoping for a few conservational tips of the trade, if possible. Or am I just stuck with resin based paper? Thanks everyone!

P.S. If Rob Hall reads this, Eddie from New York suggested that I meet up with you. If you wan't to PM me, that would be great, if not, that's fine too (I live in Pleasant Grove right now).

JBrunner
12-11-2008, 11:39 PM
Welcome to APUG!!

There are ways to wash without overt wastage, and most alt process doesn't require nearly the water that fiber does.
Glad you are here. I'm in SLiC.

bnstein
12-12-2008, 04:40 AM
Not being from Utah pardon my intrusion, but I do live in the dryest state in Australia so I can see your concern. As stated I dont think our hobby/profession (as the case may be) is going to break the water table, although you can chew up some water using fibre based paper in a continuous washer

For me doing cyanotype I can do a couple of 5x7 prints in an inch or two of water in two 8x10 trays. Im just stepping up to carbon and expect to do a print a tray. For washing film I use the fill, agitate and sit x3 rule so 2 sheets of 5x7 is maybe a pint or so. Not breaking the bank by any means: run the dishwasher one less time or dont wash the car or similar and you'll more than break even.

raucousimages
12-13-2008, 12:46 AM
It is not really that much water. The amount I use even in my longest fiber wash is a fraction of what I use to water my lawn or run a week of laundry. It may seem like a lot because you are watching it go down the drain in a slow trickle. The real idiocy in Utah is if you wast water the state will fine you but if your lawn is not green the cities will fine you for not watering enough. Washing prints, if you will pardon the pun, is a small drop in a very large bucket.

Vaughn
12-13-2008, 01:21 PM
We have the opposite problem. Our water supply system was designed to handle two pulp mills, which use a tremendous amount of water. One mill closed down years ago, and the other was bought by the Chinese and is now shut down (temp or permanent, we don't know). So now the domestic water users might have their water bills greatly increased because the revenue from the pulp mills is gone and we'll have to shoulder the costs of the over-capacity.

But conservation tips -- explore the possibility of using gray water for the initial washing of film and paper...then finish with clean water (one can use salt water for the initial wash, but the Great Salt Lake might be a bit much;))

Use standing-water wash baths as much as possible.

Don't wash obvious rejects.

SLC gets 1 to 2 inches of rain/precipitation a month (according to http://countrystudies.us/united-states/weather/utah/salt-lake-city.htm ), get a tank and capture the rain off the roof. I have used roof water to develop negatives in Australia.

Vaughn

dpurdy
12-13-2008, 03:25 PM
It is kind of funny here in Portland where we are deluged with rain about 3/4 the year yet the systems for catching rain water out of the gutters have really caught on and you see the big barrels everywhere. Over flowing I would guess.
Dennis

JBrunner
12-13-2008, 03:49 PM
It is kind of funny here in Portland where we are deluged with rain about 3/4 the year yet the systems for catching rain water out of the gutters have really caught on and you see the big barrels everywhere. Over flowing I would guess.
Dennis

If you caught rain in a barrel in Utah, you'd best use it quick. With our super dry humidity level it would be gone in a very short time. Of our 1-2 inches/mo average, 80% is frozen when it hits the ground and happens in the winter, and the other 20% comes in 1/8 inch increments over the space of nine months.

raucousimages
12-13-2008, 03:52 PM
We get an average of 1-2 inches a month. But it all comes in the winter as snow. We bake all summer with almost no rain.

Removing water from the Great Salt Lake is considered mining due to the high mineral content. It is so bad that no table salt comes from the lake any more, just road and industrial salt. It might make for some weird tones.

And right now it actually illegal to catch rainwater but that will be changing next year. Water is so valuable here that is a natural resource belonging to the state.

David A. Goldfarb
12-13-2008, 03:59 PM
For my albumen prints, I've been using a standing water bath with several changes of water, rather than a continuous water bath for the pre-wash (after exposure, before toning to remove silver halide that hasn't printed out). With a continuous wash there is some danger of streaking unless it is very slow or sufficiently random (an EcoWash print washer is said to be a good choice for this purpose, but they are quite expensive), so it actually turns out better to use a simple tray with the fill, shuffle, and dump method.

For the final wash, I use Permawash to reduce wash times.

JBrunner
12-13-2008, 04:06 PM
We get an average of 1-2 inches a month. But it all comes in the winter as snow. We bake all summer with almost no rain.

Removing water from the Great Salt Lake is considered mining due to the high mineral content. It is so bad that no table salt comes from the lake any more, just road and industrial salt. It might make for some weird tones.

And right now it actually illegal to catch rainwater but that will be changing next year. Water is so valuable here that is a natural resource belonging to the state.

Yes, at that brings up our water cycle here. Aquifers and reservoirs here are charged by spring run off. Our winter snow pack determines how much water will be available for the coming year. In bad years water becomes a very critical issue. In wet years, a bunch of it winds up in the Great Salt Lake, or in the east part of the state, sent on down to the more deserving members (sarcasm) of the Colorado River Compact. Las Vegas lives on Utah water.

MurrayMinchin
12-13-2008, 05:16 PM
Welcome aboard APUG :)

This thread got me wondering about what we get in the way of rain here in Kitimat, BC, Canada. We have ferns growing in the moss that's growing in the branches of the trees, so I knew it had to be quite a bit. Turns out we get, on average, 2395mm (7'8") of rain and 335cm (11') of snow a year.

YIKES-EEEE-MOMMA!!!

Wanna buy some moss?

http://www.eldoradocountyweather.com/canada/climate2/Kitimat.html

Murray

Vaughn
12-13-2008, 05:32 PM
And people complain about the 3 to 5 feet of rain we get! (although some areas around here do get closer to 7 feet -- depends on the mountains behind you to the east). We got moss...it is the mold growing in the closets that you got to watch out for! I always tell our new out-of-the-area students, not to put their shoes in their closets!

If one gets lost in the woods, the old adage of moss growing only the north side of the tree just has people going in circles around here! Do the ferns only grow on the north side of the moss?

Vaughn

MurrayMinchin
12-13-2008, 05:55 PM
Do the ferns only grow on the north side of the moss?


Nope - just about any place the moss is thick enough. We're at the head of a 60 mile channel, so it's "pretty dry" compared to the first mountains that intercept the incoming Pacific weather systems on the outer coast. There are ferns and flowers growing in the moss that's growing on the branches of the trees out there, but it never snows over 4' in a day, so I like it better here :)

Murray

bowzart
12-13-2008, 11:12 PM
YIKES-EEEE-MOMMA!!!


I HAD to look you up.

We live pretty much due south of you, in Anacortes, WA, which is on the only San Juan Island that you can drive to, Fidalgo. We're about 90km South of Langley, which is on the US border. It hardly rains here at all compared to where you are. My wife just told me we get a bit more than half a meter (21 inches) of rain. We've had enough rain, even so, thanks! It is depressing! How can you stand it!

Right now, we are blanketed with snow -- about 30mm, I'd guess. The neighborhood kids are out throwing snowballs and building snowmen. I understand we are in for a VERY SERIOUS snowstorm and may get as much as 12.5 cm. Man, what are we going to do? Traffic will be paralyzed. I think I'll sit home by the fire with the cats! Seriously, for you it is probably a laughing matter, but around here, people have to drive in snow so seldom that when they do, a large proportion of them end up in the ditch.

Well, we are in the Olympic rain shadow, and while it is still Pacific Maritime, it's nothing like where you are. We can go to the other side of the Olympic Peninsula to Forks, though, and they get about 3 meters of rain, over 10 feet; hardly any snow though. The rainforest over there would seem pretty familiar to you, I'm sure.

It wouldn't work here, but where you are, can't you just hang your prints on a clothesline overnight?

dances_w_clouds
12-14-2008, 12:24 AM
Yes we get RAIN. Tonight though we have SNOW. Makes for great black & white shots. They don't call this the Wetcoast for nothing !!

bowzart
12-14-2008, 12:37 AM
Yes we get RAIN. Tonight though we have SNOW. Makes for great black & white shots. They don't call this the Wetcoast for nothing !!

Yeah, Lotus Eater!

It's pretty much the same here, neighbor. But if you moved over to Victoria (which is actually south of us) you'd have our weather. I think it's a bit better on the whole than yours. But, weather isn't everything. We can't get a decent Chinese dinner without heading up your way, or going the other way just about the same distance to Seattle.

We drove home from Bellingham at around dusk. The landscape gradually disappeared into the mist. It was gorgeous. I didn't take any prints to wash by towing them behind the car.

dances_w_clouds
12-14-2008, 01:16 AM
Ya with Victoria right on the south of the Island they get the wind. Actually were I live the postal code is Burnaby.On the coast here we get some outstanding shots. What I've noticed is we are the only ones still in today most eastern APUG ers are in tomorrow. Oh well they don't notice cause most are sleeping. It usually gets VERY quiet here @ this time. Oh well I'm just babbling time fer bed.

Vaughn
12-14-2008, 11:47 AM
...In wet years, a bunch of it winds up in the Great Salt Lake, or in the east part of the state, sent on down to the more deserving members (sarcasm) of the Colorado River Compact. Las Vegas lives on Utah water.

It can be an interesting discussion with folks down south with brown lawns and restrictions on washing their cars that the water flowing down our rivers into the sea is not just getting "wasted". SoCal use of Colorado River water is a touchy issue (not to mention Mono Lake!) as water pacts will divert more and more of that water to Arizona.

Water rights is the biggest issue in the West, and the world -- the Israel/Palestinian conflict is more about water rights than anything else. Land, yes, but more importantly about the water running under it.

I find it interesting comparing the SLC rain data I linked to above, and the perception of those who live there. I suppose even if SLC gets an inch of rain every month, when it is such low humidity it must evaporate right after hitting the ground and not soak in. So different from here!

Vaughn

bowzart
12-14-2008, 12:47 PM
...Water rights is the biggest issue in the West, and the world -- ...
Vaughn

Even up here in the Skagit Valley - the Skagit River carries the 3rd largest volume on the west side of the US; Only the Columbia and the Sacramento deliver more water to the Pacific. It rains a fair to large amount in the Skagit watershed. The North Cascades, from whence it comes, get a great deal of snow. We SEE a lot of water; more than we like. Superficially, one might think that we should have no shortage of water. We can't necessarily count on it. It's not just the Skagit, either; all of the rivers in Western Washington are affected as well, as are, to some extent, the rivers on the east side of the Cascades.

Two conditions that I know of (maybe there are others?) have a way of causing major flooding. The flooding results in the depletion of the stored water, as well as causing serious damage to communities downstream. We can sometimes have a lot of precipitation in a year which nonetheless leaves us experiencing drought conditions.

One of these conditions is the "Pineapple Express" - a stream of warm, wet air coming straight from Hawaii. By straight, I mean just that; a straight line of clouds that heads right for Puget Sound and the Straights of Georgia. As the warm air moves northward, it cools and dumps a great deal of rain. The warm air and rain melts accumulated snow. Typically, this happens several times / year. Flying from Honolulu to Seattle once, we got on the plane in the sun, then followed the clouds all the way to Seattle and disembarked to find it raining very hard. We wanted to get back on the airplane and go right back. Of course, all of the rivers were flooding.

The other condition is when we get early hot days in the spring. This simply melts the snow. By spring, we are about ready for some sun, but when we get it, flooding can be on its way. Some years, it is very strange. Thinking we are getting lots of rain, we can still be in a drought.

These floods and their aftereffects in drought years have disastrous effects on the salmon runs and agriculture both on the west side of the Cascades and the east side too. A few years back, we had sequential drought years; it was hard for the orchards to stay in business.

-----

BTW, dances-w-clouds, we get the same winds that Victoria gets... Sometimes, out on the flats, at or very close to hurricane force. The water is flat; the land is flat. Two storms blew down a local barn two years ago. The first one got most of it; the second finished the job a week later.

dances_w_clouds
12-14-2008, 03:22 PM
Yes the weather patterns are changing in record numbers. One year about about 5 years ago we were setting them for the most amount of rain. In the last few years records for the least amount. Most places have gradual changes but in the Pascific Northwest it is more pronounced.