View Full Version : A Christmas Cookie from Santa

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11-13-2010, 12:25 AM

After my 3 or 4 editors finish, and I make corrections, it will probably be called VII. :D

BTW, the core of the book is about 58M.

I have it in 4 files and the total is a bit larger.


There is a hole in the bucket Dear Eliza! :p

11-13-2010, 02:44 AM
Sounds dumb, but I actually know someone who went digital solely because of the use of gelatin in analog photo products. I am of a sympathetic attitude on the over consumption and mistreatment of animals by humans, but there is truly nothing more repulsive to me than human absolutism!

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 10:26 AM

My head has a hole in it. I was up until 1AM editing the book, printing and reviewing the DVDs. Maybe you can explain your last post. I'm kinda whacked this AM.



Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 11:42 AM
Unfortunately, I priced out having my editing copies today. In B&W only it will run about $25 each without binding and up to $100 each in color. When I have the larger run made, this same type of price differential will apply!

So, here is a question..... How important is color to you all? Is it worth up to 4x in price no matter what the price is?


Ray Rogers
11-13-2010, 12:59 PM
No. A black and white emulsion should be in B/W.
(Even if it is color sensitive!)

If color is critical, perhaps it could form a supplemental appendix in the DVD?

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 01:08 PM

These are color figures and photos, many FROM the DVD in the book to illustrate or emphasize a point.


11-13-2010, 02:42 PM
With complicated graphics I prefer colour.

11-13-2010, 02:55 PM
What the Heck?! I don`t think anyone will be buying multiple copies of your book. The difference between $25 and $100 for a one time purchase is not a big deal! Anyone who is making emulsions must realize that $75 dose not buy a lot of AgNO3. I say Go For The Color. A color photograph of a gray scale image is only inappropriate if it misrepresents the actual image. A color reproduction of a warm tone black and white photograph can me more honest than a neutral reproduction of that image.
I am serious,for a change

11-13-2010, 03:14 PM
Good to hear about your progress! I'm waiting eagerly.

About color vs. bw ----

although I am ready to pay 100 USD for the book -- for the marvelous CONTENT! -- , I would be a bit reluctant to do it just for color printing. If the book explained color theory etc. it would be more important, but BW graphics and photos in a book describing mostly BW emulsions would be IMO sufficient. If it is $25 vs $100, If I was you I would make it BW and $35 and use the extra $10 for buying some silver nitrate ;).

Or to rephrase, I don't want that much money go to the print, but rather I'd support your research efforts with that money.

So, color is a nice extra, but not worth 4x price.

Most of the technical literature of this area is printed in black and white anyway and the photos and illustrations make perfect sense. Shanebrook's book is an exception as it is strongly a photo book.

But, I'll be happy in any decision you make.

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 03:44 PM

Lets do this again. The cost to ME is about $25 B&W and $100 Color in small quantities. The cost to you would be more than that just so that I can break even. I spent $50 today on paper just to print copies for editing. And, some people will not buy the DVDs or vice versa, so that there is material repeated in both the book and the DVDs.

The cost would go down if I ordered more. But then I am speculating that I can sell the larger quantity. So, in a hypothetical scenario, I can get up to 100 books for $100 each in color or go to a shop and get 1000 books for about $50 each. Either way that is a LOT of money to invest so I am looking at all aspects of this to cut costs for all of us.


11-13-2010, 04:02 PM
I'm in either B/W or color.

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 04:26 PM

What you need for starters is an accurate count of the APUGgers who will really buy the book, not the ones who say they will buy the book. That would help you estimate the size of the first printing. Maybe Ralph has ome words of wisdom on this.



I am pretty sure that it would not work unless these people prepayed.

I am probably going to work with the same printer that did Bob's book.



11-13-2010, 04:47 PM
Whether we are talking about $25 vs. $100 or $50 vs $150, my argument is the same.
Perhaps you could ask for deposits, just to discover how many cwazy emulsion makers are weally sewious.

11-13-2010, 04:57 PM
I would be fine with preordering with prepayment if it happens when the book is checked and ready to be printed. I think we all understand that you need capital to be able to print it, so prepayment is fine...

You could, for example, have a discount price for people who have preordered and prepaid, or some other kind of motivation. I think that one of the best motivations is a clause that you can guarantee the availability only for those who have preordered -- and, the more preorders, the lower price. Then, we would do our best to advertise the book among the traditional photography enthusiasts -- not only this forum. This could actually start a new boom!

What comes to color vs. bw, I think many of us who are active on this forum are so eager about this book that the price difference wouldn't matter, but OTOH lower price would surely attract more people to buy the book, lowering the price even more, and "spreading the word" for those who are not sure enough about emulsion making but want to give it a try some day or get more information before getting too deeply involved. So, lower price would help to get rid of the "specialist" stigma of emulsion making, and spread the word among all BW film hobbyists, making emulsion experimenting comparable to home darkroom printing etc.

Anyway, it's so nice to see we are so close that we discuss the actual printing! Congratulations for the hard work!

11-13-2010, 04:59 PM
It sounds like it's time for you to establish a simple webpage promoting the book and etc and accepting prepayments. You can make it clear that you'll be able to start printing the books as soon as you reach 'X' prepayments. A running tally of orders would be fun to watch. Count me in as #1 when it's set up.

I'm absolutely delighted for you. You've been at this project for a long time. I'm guessing it feels a little surreal to be getting this close. For what it's worth, you have a lot of fans and friends cheering from the bleachers. Our best to you.

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 05:00 PM
Well, the book could be a download. I'm considering that. Then you could order it via APUG! ;) Listening in Sean?

I could zip it and reduce the size from about 60M to something uploadable. The DVDs though would have to be sent via mail I would think due to the huge file sizes.

Version VI just finished printing out to go to my friends for editing!


11-13-2010, 06:52 PM
In considering making the book a download,the quality of the printing that you are considering vs. home printing should be considered. Since you are pondering B&W vs. Color, I will assume that the quality of the illustrations is important. In that case, home printing on an a consumer grade ink jet printer might be not OK.

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 07:44 PM

I am only printing this for my own editing and for friends to edit and mark up.

As for the images, they are as high a quality as I can make them except for a few hand drawn graphs which I hope to improve before finalizing things. Viewed on-screen, the image quality is excellent and with a good printer, as Bob used, the book should be quite striking for quality.

I have opted for single column with nearly full width photos which currently run about 5" wide so that detail can be seen.



11-13-2010, 08:07 PM
What about "printing on demand"?

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 08:09 PM
That is actually the method that I got a quote on and posted above.