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AgX
11-13-2010, 08:07 PM
What about "printing on demand"?

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 08:09 PM
That is actually the method that I got a quote on and posted above.

PE

Sirius Glass
11-13-2010, 08:16 PM
PE
Whether we are talking about $25 vs. $100 or $50 vs $150, my argument is the same.
Perhaps you could ask for deposits, just to discover how many cwazy emulsion makers are weally sewious.
Bill

How about contingent deposits of $50US [in $25US increments]:

A deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $100US
A deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $125US
B deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $75US
C deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $150US
D deposits $50US for the book not to exceed $100US
...

That way you would have

X0 $50US deposits not to exceed $75US
X1 $50US deposits not to exceed $100US
X2 $50US deposits not to exceed $125US
X3 $50US deposits not to exceed $150US
...
Then you would have commitments that would allow you to calculate the price point.

Steve

Athiril
11-13-2010, 08:40 PM
Athiril;

My head has a hole in it. I was up until 1AM editing the book, printing and reviewing the DVDs. Maybe you can explain your last post. I'm kinda whacked this AM.

Sorry.

PE

You're not familiar with this song?



Guys;

Lets do this again. The cost to ME is about $25 B&W and $100 Color in small quantities. The cost to you would be more than that just so that I can break even. I spent $50 today on paper just to print copies for editing. And, some people will not buy the DVDs or vice versa, so that there is material repeated in both the book and the DVDs.

The cost would go down if I ordered more. But then I am speculating that I can sell the larger quantity. So, in a hypothetical scenario, I can get up to 100 books for $100 each in color or go to a shop and get 1000 books for about $50 each. Either way that is a LOT of money to invest so I am looking at all aspects of this to cut costs for all of us.

PE

Perhaps make the DVD compulsory/standard?

Seeing as your method as stated in another post is print-on-demand like with the numerous online publishing services do, or where ever you get it from, you should also offer the colour version as well, since it's all print-on-demand, right?




Unfortunately, I priced out having my editing copies today. In B&W only it will run about $25 each without binding and up to $100 each in color. When I have the larger run made, this same type of price differential will apply!

So, here is a question..... How important is color to you all? Is it worth up to 4x in price no matter what the price is?

PE


How big is your book that it would cost $100 for print-on-demand for colour??

I assume the $100 price is based around the 400-500 page mark? ~21x27cm, hard cover and colour?


I'd pay $180-$220 for such a book. I'm not sure how many others would feel the same.

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 08:49 PM
It is $0.11 / page in B&W and $0.59 / page in Color. Any color on a page is considered a color page. There are 244 pages in the main body of the book + cover + copyright page + ending pages. This brings it to about 250 pages. This brings it to $27.50 for all B&W and $147.50 for all color. Not all figures are color. The estimate right now for the average of 215 figures and graphs with about 1/2 in color is $100. The page size is 8.5 x 11. It is $4.00 / copy for binding. That is the cost to me.

At present, I am obligated to about 10 free copies which is inevitable. The Library of Congress wants one to register it, just as an example.

And I am familiar with that old song about my bucket. I am trying to apply it to this situation. I have failed somehow. ;)

Now, an intermediary offers POD at a reduced price but also at a huge profit for them, but not much for me. I am still looking at this. As for the DVDs, everyone so far has suggested that the DVDs be optional, up to this point.

PE

wildbillbugman
11-13-2010, 09:02 PM
OK-That`s it for me. I will now finish washing my rubber-like emulsion, leave it to soak overnight, and say 'Good Night'.
Bill

Athiril
11-13-2010, 09:40 PM
It is $0.11 / page in B&W and $0.59 / page in Color. Any color on a page is considered a color page. There are 244 pages in the main body of the book + cover + copyright page + ending pages. This brings it to about 250 pages. This brings it to $27.50 for all B&W and $147.50 for all color. Not all figures are color. The estimate right now for the average of 215 figures and graphs with about 1/2 in color is $100. The page size is 8.5 x 11. It is $4.00 / copy for binding. That is the cost to me.

At present, I am obligated to about 10 free copies which is inevitable. The Library of Congress wants one to register it, just as an example.

And I am familiar with that old song about my bucket. I am trying to apply it to this situation. I have failed somehow. ;)

Now, an intermediary offers POD at a reduced price but also at a huge profit for them, but not much for me. I am still looking at this. As for the DVDs, everyone so far has suggested that the DVDs be optional, up to this point.

PE

Oh well, the proofreadnig +1 to edition number, then proofreading that edition again and so forth seems to be a repeating loop.. :)

lulu puts a 250 page, hardcover for 8.25x10.25" at $21.25 per unit at a quantity of a single book, but $64 for colour.

The colour price is quite good, it allows plenty of room for pricing into profit, (you get 80% iirc).

Photo Engineer
11-13-2010, 09:43 PM
I'm looking at LuLu! Thanks.

PE

Athiril
11-13-2010, 10:10 PM
They can do your ISBN too for you if needed. But you dont have to get your B&W and Colour from the same place, single unit on demand printing is good for the couple of those who'd want the colour version, since it costs nothing to actually host/make it available. :)

Ray Rogers
11-14-2010, 06:33 AM
I think we need to keep in mind that
the book is not a showcase of fine photography;
it wll in most likelyhood be, hummm, a cookbook,
for the advanced artist/photographer.

If the photography was well done, color would,
for the most part, be unnecessary.

I have a self published book about dry plates which includes a CD (orDVD) with all the color mages.

I don't know how much value being able to see the tone of the photographs would be....

I would prefer a preorder special where a series of emulsions were produced... actual samples being included in the book; they could be included as an appendix.

I know the idea of using real photographs has been discounted by PE before;
This is just a reminder.

4x the cost of a b/w book is really wasteful IMHO.

The DVD should suffice.

That said, I like color and understand it may actually be necessary for some pictures;
Shanebrooks book for example, would have been much worse had it been in B/W.

I am not really thrilled with the color/printing quality of that book however.
My favorite low volume book of this sort is black and white with a color cover.

Execllent information
low cost and no frills.

On the otherhand,
A downloadable book is nice too...
if the absence of being printed, bound and mailed is reflected in the price.

I have several of these and they are good.
In addition, they can be printed in whole or in part
according to the desire of the individual,
some may opt to be more (? no judgement here) ecofriendly.

My own opinion is that a simple, clear, high quality hard copy,
at low cost, with or without color, is ideal.

Those of us here who are active will buy the book at any crazy price...
the larger % of sales however, will come from the less passionate and for them,
price will be an issue... any thing over 100 USD is for the truely passionate.

Or bloody rich.

Athiril
11-14-2010, 07:28 AM
Over 100USD is a normal price.

Consider any reasonably new good book on optics, software or game programming, or other technical subjects, even just photography as a subject itself in many cases are over $100 USD for publisher-backed books from Amazon even, and this is with competing products/books/information as well.

Given print on demand, people would be able to order a b&w or colour book to their preference without printed copies having to sit around before demand. It also allows constant availability. I'm not so sure a downloadable version would be a great idea, but that's another argument altogether.



At a print cost of $64 (colour), I think a sale price of ~$130 would be very reasonable taking things into consideration, and consider what you're actually getting for your money. Information that you wouldn't be able to derive yourself without dedicating 10+ years to the subject, along with tens of thousands of dollars to do so or more, but you get this in such a short time frame, for very little cost.


This isn't a run-of-the-mill $40-$50 book.

Ray Rogers
11-14-2010, 09:43 AM
Are you one of the chosen ones who have seen the book?
It may be a bit early early to pass judgement.

Sure, for a complete newbie who wants to get involved, it MIGHT be worth it.
but after all is said and done, the information, as I understand it, is the authors, not Kodak's,
for the most part, worked out at home over the last few years.
It needs to be valued accordingly.

You might be overrating things a tiny bit.
Basic information is easy to find if you simply want to get your fingers wet.

I don't know who buys such expensive books routienly,
but I must say thanks to the person who had the sense to envision a world with Public and University Librarys.

That is the only way for some to know books such as Haist.

I personally don't see the numbers adding up with a high sell price;
books on optics, programming, or other technical subjects have a wider audience, plus those are often cutting edge technology...
this presumably, is not.

I think 40-50 USD is not that far off.

AgX
11-14-2010, 10:52 AM
Ray, the information the industry could give us would meanwhile be based on the laboratory standard employed and neccessary in the plants.
To my understanding PE is offering something digested and proven to be doable in high-end home labs.

Jerevan
11-14-2010, 11:29 AM
I am hoping the book will be aimed towards the emulsion maker at home, who wants to have a textbook to achieve the practical results. Athirils' idea of two versions, B/W or colour with print on demand seems like a good idea. As for the question: I prefer colour.

Sirius Glass
11-14-2010, 11:45 AM
Over 100USD is a normal price.

Technical textbooks are considered cheap if they are under $100US.

Steve

Ray Rogers
11-14-2010, 12:01 PM
Well, yes AgX. That is sort of my point.
It is a tricky question, and absolute value is not the only consideration.
Different sell prices will result in different sales.

Different goals can be achieved by appropriate pricing.

I don't want to sound negative or whatever.

I am sure PE will set the price he thinks is best.

wildbillbugman
11-14-2010, 12:12 PM
Ron and All,
I think that Ron should make the best book he can, to HIS satisfaction. Then charge what he thinks is a fair price for him to make a profit on each book sold. The IMPORTANT thing is that the book is the best that he can do to his own satisfaction, not what other people want. Ron is obviously not doing this just for commerce. I cannot know what is in Ron's mind, but I think that it is a labor of love. If I were to publish a book, I would not be satisfied with compromise. I would look at it as I look at my own art. I would not show it to anyone (accept for constructive criticism), until I was satisfied that it: one-meets my original intentions, and two-is the very best that I can do.
Bill

Jerevan
11-14-2010, 01:27 PM
Amen to that, Bill! Make the best you can and put it out there.

Athiril
11-14-2010, 05:39 PM
Are you one of the chosen ones who have seen the book?
It may be a bit early early to pass judgement.

Sure, for a complete newbie who wants to get involved, it MIGHT be worth it.
but after all is said and done, the information, as I understand it, is the authors, not Kodak's,
for the most part, worked out at home over the last few years.
It needs to be valued accordingly.

You might be overrating things a tiny bit.
Basic information is easy to find if you simply want to get your fingers wet.

I don't know who buys such expensive books routienly,
but I must say thanks to the person who had the sense to envision a world with Public and University Librarys.

That is the only way for some to know books such as Haist.

I personally don't see the numbers adding up with a high sell price;
books on optics, programming, or other technical subjects have a wider audience, plus those are often cutting edge technology...
this presumably, is not.

I think 40-50 USD is not that far off.


Those books are not dealing with cutting edge technology actually. Yes they have a wider audience and are thus cheaper than those with a narrower audience, that is how it goes.

While Ron's book IS cutting edge technology for the intended audience, yes there are a few years of work into this, with decades of background experience and specialisation. As I said earlier, it would take someone else much longer to come to this, and a lot of money, not a mere 2 or 3 years fiddling at home.

Even if that were the case, 3+ years work of an average person made into a book on a technical subject is worth more than $40-$50 already, let alone the above considerations.

$40-50 is a pretty low end book.

Photo Engineer
11-14-2010, 06:29 PM
Ray;

Your post #52 was totally off the mark. Most of the others hit it right on.

This book was done as a labor of love. I have tried, but failed to duplicate modern emulsions at home, so what I did was to take my 15 years as a comparative emulsion scientist involved in emulsion modeling and scaling and use it to engineer several useful types of emulsion that can be done at home with less than about $5000 investment in equipment and chemicals. Options are shown for costs far less than this, probably in the $1000 level. I list the equipment for all options in the book and show (color) photos of all of it in use! The DVD goes into detail.

So, these emulsions, to the average APUG reader would be "cutting edge" as said above. The reasons being 1. Every emulsion has been made and tested more than once except for the warm tone Azo type emulsion; 2, All emulsions have been scaled from 100 ml up to as much as 5L, and also blended to prove repeatability; 3. All emulsions show variants that allow contrast control, speed control, spectral sensitivity control or combinations of the these (this feature alone making it totally unique among all emulsion making texts ever published AFAIK); 4. All of my emulsions given in the book are originals for one reason or another, and have not been published in this form elsewhere; and finally; All emulsions in the book are doable in the home lab with no special equipment except a hotplate-stirrer.

Last, but not least, I give reasoning behind everything done, and jumping off points for the brave, leaving a "cliff hanger" for myself as well in case sales go well. In doing so, I describe some of the Kodak technology that makes some of this doable and some that makes it very very difficult to do at home. That said, I can then move on from there and show either more advanced making or other techniques if there is a sequel or if I add to this book in the next few months before publication.

Now, to jump back a bit here. My efforts to make modern emulsions in my lab relate to the need for better high speed mixing (see my thread on stirring, mixing and homogenizing here on APUG). The need for precise delivery points in the kettle, and the need for precise baffles in the kettle to control eddies and other mixing problems are also involved. So, thus far, T-grains and cubes are within reach but need more advanced equipment and I am working on that.

At the present time, I am working on better mixing, but this ups the ante by as much as $2000. Who wants to spring for that? ;)

And, there is the question of whether I should hold the book to include any success story or wait for a possible sequel. < Anyone listening to this particular question?? You see, this can be open ended. I can keep going for another year and completely cover the range of emulsions (If I succeed in making a modern emulsion), I can write a sequel, or I can offer updated appendices to prior purchasers.

Well, you get the picture. I am applying 15 years of emulsion experience and 32 years of overall product development work to this task. The emulsions are not just OTOMH. They are based on sound scientific methods of emulsion making!

PE