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totalamateur
03-10-2011, 01:29 AM
#2 and #6 would be my top priorities, if any. The issue with #1 is that it presupposes that the home emulsion maker is going to have a densitometer. I think probably many do not. If #4 is too hard; perhaps it should come as an addendum later, a value added appendix. I think #3 runs a close third.

I think you have posted in the past that you considered posting in serial form. I could see how that would turn into more trouble than its worth, however, at least some more documentation on mixing, the underlying chemistry, and optimisaion of design (which presumable could come later) might not require as much lab time and expense for you. I'm (perhaps incorrectly) assuming that this information is more regurgitating expertise, not working out @ home recipes suitable for, well, me.

Athiril
03-10-2011, 02:43 AM
I'm beginning to regret both this thread and the title. You know, writing a book is not all it is cracked up to be, nor is it very easy. In any event, a lot of people are saying "where is it". Well, there are several dozen people out there who have seen draft VII of the book and have held it in their hands or read portions of it.

In any event, after review by 5 of my peers there are several major enhancements that they feel should be added and are under consideration for being added. These added items is via private communication and is over and above the editing they did on what already exists.

1. More on sensitometry and densitometry.

2. Maybe something on system design and optimization < make comments guys and gals!

3. Stirring, Mixing and Homogenizing

4. Chloro-Bromides < I ignore these and feel that they are too hard for starters

6. More detail in some sections regarding the chemistry of the stuff I do describe

Well, you see the point. I have scoped this out and it will add another 50 or so pages. I do agree that it will make a better book especially #1 and #2.

As an added item, having just taught another workshop, I feel that a rewrite of the formulas would help in clarity as some students had trouble with the format. I have changed it several times over the last 5 years of workshops and the latest was closest to the book. I don't like it and the students asked more questions.

Just tacking this on to the thread FYI.

PE


I like ideas #2 and #6 the most.

Not sure what to comment on #2 though!



Just be aware of feature creep ;)

DAP
03-10-2011, 12:50 PM
I would be interested in topics 6, 2, and 3 in that order. (I have only played w/ pre-made liquid emulsion - never made my own)

As far as the price/format opinions that people are throwing around...I'll dip my toe into those waters as well.

I think that you have two camps interested in your book: Group #1 being composed of Hard-core emulsion, chemistry, alt process junkies and Group #2 made up of emulsion beginners and more casual darkroom workers. You could probably double your current price point and group #1 would still purchase it. Group #2, being more casual about the entire subject would probably take a pass on the book if the price is too high. I would assume that group #2 offers more profit potential so I wouldn't price them out of the market.

How about breaking your book up into two volumes. Volume 1 could cover some of the more basic/fundamental topics needed to successfully make an emulsion (culminating in several emulsion formulas). Make Volume 1 w/ basic B&W photos and price it so it would appeal to a casual darkroom user. Volume 2 could cover all of the more advanced topics and techniques (chemistry, methods, etc.) that appeal to hard core emulsion fans...go all out on this one and price it accordingly. This way you have an emulsion book that appeals to a wider audience as well as an optional 2nd volume that doesn't dumb it down for the advanced emulsion afficionados.

Assuming that this two volume idea is not going to work (I sounds like the format is pretty much set) I would try to make the book as affordable as you can (I think that you will sell more). You could always sell a DVD/CD-ROM separately and place a menu on it w/ all the color photos that coorespond the B&W photos in the book. Those that want the color can pay extra for the DVD/cd.

I've already set aside a little stash to buy your book when it is available so it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me (color or B&W, I'm still buying it), but I think you will definately move more books if you price it cheaper.

DAP
03-10-2011, 12:55 PM
One more thing, Personally I would be willing to pay more for a Hardcover - they seem to last much longer. Back when I was in school I always felt ripped off when I payed $100+++ for a trade paperback textbook. Somehow the Hardcover made the price a bit more tolerable :)

Photo Engineer
03-10-2011, 01:06 PM
Yeah, I see the problems.

If I do a comb bound book with a soft cover, it might not last long for the hard core enthusiasts, but the DR junkies might use it in the lab as a lab tutorial right on the bench where they work. Such a book would be about $50 - $75 depending on how much color I need in it. Hardbound is out of sight. They are a step above what I have seen for soft cover due to the binding needed.

Regarding the organization OTOH, the two groups suggest to me that I divide the book into 3 parts. Part I (general instructions and information for all), Part II (formulas for all) and Part III (appendices with hard core information). I was already tending in that direction if you look at the OP here, but this feedback is making me feel that it is better to reorganize as I describe here with more vigor.

PE

JOSarff
03-10-2011, 01:23 PM
I'm beginning to regret both this thread and the title. You know, writing a book is not all it is cracked up to be, nor is it very easy. In any event, a lot of people are saying "where is it". Well, there are several dozen people out there who have seen draft VII of the book and have held it in their hands or read portions of it.

In any event, after review by 5 of my peers there are several major enhancements that they feel should be added and are under consideration for being added. These added items is via private communication and is over and above the editing they did on what already exists.

1. More on sensitometry and densitometry.

2. Maybe something on system design and optimization < make comments guys and gals!

3. Stirring, Mixing and Homogenizing

4. Chloro-Bromides < I ignore these and feel that they are too hard for starters

6. More detail in some sections regarding the chemistry of the stuff I do describe

Well, you see the point. I have scoped this out and it will add another 50 or so pages. I do agree that it will make a better book especially #1 and #2.

As an added item, having just taught another workshop, I feel that a rewrite of the formulas would help in clarity as some students had trouble with the format. I have changed it several times over the last 5 years of workshops and the latest was closest to the book. I don't like it and the students asked more questions.

Just tacking this on to the thread FYI.

PE


Yes Ron, writing is difficult and has little reward until you finish, which you feel (about now) you never will. My first wife was a librarian and we knew several authors and the consensus was unanimous. When the book was expected by the public it was only worse. Plus, these were fiction authors. A technical book is even more difficult. Then you have a worldwide public bulletin board that keeps nagging you.

Your peer review panel is excellent, please remember they are probably all PhD level chemists or the equivalent by their experience. 99.995% of the readers arenít. Iím pretty good at chemistry but my eyes glazed over a couple of times in the workshop when the conversation took off into the stratosphere.

I have a densitometer and know how to use it from a past job at a motion picture lab. A section on sensitometry and densitometry would help me so I knew why I was doing what I was doing.

System design, why a film or paper needs to act and react the way it does, is helpful, but not as critical to me as other information. Perhaps, as I learn more I will see that I need this information more.

On stirring, mixing and homogenizing, I feel most of us out here are lucky to have a stirring hot plate. I guess I need the book to understand the use and need.

Chlorobromides, you say you ignore these as they are too hard for beginners. True. However, diligent study of your book and experimentation in the darkroom one will not always be a beginner. Granted I have made exactly two batches to date. Batch two ran exactly as you described in Rochester with no problems. Will batch three? I expect it will, following good practices and methods. Am I an expert? No, but Iím trying (sometimes very trying).

More information on what happened and why things work is always helpful. I donít know what else to say about this point.

On the formula I reworked it for myself after the workshop so I had the information all together. Iíll email you a copy for your review and comments.

Those are my thoughts for what their worth,

All the best

Joe

Photo Engineer
03-10-2011, 02:14 PM
Joe;

Thanks for the excellent comments. You met three of the reviewers at the workshop in Rochester, Mark (of course), Bob and Martin. At least two more agreed to join us for the following workshops. So we will have all 5 reviewers present to answer questions or otherwise look on when they drop in.

PE

holmburgers
03-10-2011, 02:24 PM
I think that two-tiered pricing is necessary, that's all I'll say about that. It seems like a no-brainer. You have a limited, balls-to-the-walls edition that has a premium price tag for collectors and you have the bare-bones worker's edition.

I think that specific issues of densitometry that relate to emulsion making could/should be addressed, but an in depth discussion is not necessary, is it? A good "further reading" section could probably eliminate the need for a chapter on densitometry altogether.

What exactly do you mean by design system and optimization?

I think that if there are things that don't get covered extensively in the book, they should at least be mentioned and again, perhaps suggest literature that does cover them. You'd hate to completely ignore something, thinking it'll be covered in the next edition and what if something happens in the interim? I think it's good to mention things, to at least get it in writing and leave it up to the reader to dig deeper. A reference book, a history book or a technical book should provide as many avenues of research as possible, at the expense of "teasing" the reader if necessary.

*lastly* I agree with the comment that you should have at least a couple non-scientist types review it. You big brains you... you'll all get together and notice that the chemical conversion of A to B is missing an ion and a couple atoms here and over there... but you'll probably miss the fact that you've never explained the meaning of X or Y in the first place. Plus, readability, style, flow have little to do with technical knowledge. If you need any volunteers... I know a guy.

:D

Photo Engineer
03-10-2011, 03:15 PM
Chris;

I'll let you read a copy when you visit Rochester. At least as much as you can during breaks! :D

PE

Athiril
03-10-2011, 03:25 PM
I think you have a real chance to provide otherwise unavailable information that would otherwise be lost to time. I'm of the opinion that such information should take priority. Anything already available (to the general public/your readers) in a detailed manner should be a lower priority to this. I just think you need to give some pointers on recommended reading and prerequisites so that information would be more 'useable' :)

I mean, there's no sense in reinventing the wheel right? Unless all the other wheels up until now have been square :)

Photo Engineer
03-10-2011, 03:39 PM
Athiril;

You have some valid points. Your last statement though is most important. ALL books on actual emulsion making have been square wheels!

This is in the opinion of just about all current Emulsion Scientists.

Wall, Baker, Glafkides and Duffin, to name four, all fail to address modern emulsions (of their time) with real examples and they address their contemporaneous emulsions, where mentioned, with many errors or omissions. One writer admitted in a private comment to someone that most of the emulsions he put in his book had never been tested by him. Many of Glafkides examples are a series of excerpts from the BIOS and FIAT reports, and much of Duffin are repeats from Glafkides. And, as I pointed out in another thread, Glafkides gets the Brovira table wrong.

Wall's books are full of obfuscation if you read them from the POV of an emulsion maker. Baker is better. The original BIOS and FIAT reports are filled with obfuscation and error.

I am trying to say things in a simple manner, but as pointed out above, some want more - they want the reasoning behind things. So, maybe I'll hit the mark or maybe miss it. I can think of 3 or 4 APUG members who will probably pan it just because I wrote it. ;) So from that POV it may not matter what I say anyhow.

But, I hear you and agree, especially about the square wheels!

PE

Athiril
03-10-2011, 04:00 PM
I think the reasoning is important because then you can give people the tools to innovate and create, as opposed to just copying.

Photo Engineer
03-10-2011, 06:34 PM
I think the reasoning is important because then you can give people the tools to innovate and create, as opposed to just copying.

That is very true and is why I do have a short section in my workshops devoted to this. Sometimes it is too advanced though.

PE

rmazzullo
03-10-2011, 08:12 PM
To add my two cents to the discussion....

What is considered too advanced? In different threads in this forum, it has been mentioned that emulsion making information is in many cases, incomplete and / or incorrect by design.

If the "advanced" material adds to a tested, verified and correct foundation from which we can create and at some point, design our own emulsions, then I would definitely like to see this extra theory / information included, even if I am not immediately prepared to use it. I will, in time, get to the point where successful efforts will require answers to the questions that will inevitably arise. More advanced information may answer a lot of those questions, and it will be complete and correct, and add to the knowledge base.

Thanks,

Bob M.

Athiril
03-10-2011, 08:32 PM
That's one small step for PE, one giant leap for APUG-kind.

Photo Engineer
03-10-2011, 09:00 PM
Hey, I'm in a vacuum here guys! ;)

PE

rmazzullo
03-10-2011, 09:06 PM
PE,

Sorry 'bout that.... :)

Bob M.

Photo Engineer
03-10-2011, 09:09 PM
About what? I'm on the moon taking one small step and standing in a vacuum and you are sorry? How. :D

Athiril
03-10-2011, 09:17 PM
Mean while the rest of us have discovered pointy sticks! :D

Photo Engineer
03-10-2011, 09:23 PM
Don't puncture my space suit!