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Ray Rogers
02-03-2009, 07:55 AM
At one point from what I could discern, the narrator seems to mention radioactivity, but I'm not sure where or if radioactivity would come into the film manufacturing process.

Tom.

I believe that would be air quality control... as a counter measure against atomic testing or whatever - radioactivity in the vicinity of sensitized materials is not good and could be very costly... I wonder if PE has any stories or further info about this.
It seems that paper base too might somehow become impregnated with tiny radioactive material... which causes much head scratching in the absence of any testing.

Marco B
02-03-2009, 08:14 AM
Hi guys, I am Dutch too, but wouldn't it be far easier if PE or someone else with (former) contacts within Kodak asked Kodak if they can dig this film up from their archive???

Since all the illustrations and text are in English, the film must originally have been made in the US. I guess someone within Kodak or at the George Eastman house must be able to dig it up, especially if they have this Dutch track / film as an example...

The voice is of our classic Polygoon news agency narrator, Philip Bloemendaal, who did this kind of narration for nearly forty years, from 1946 to 1986, the 1958 copyright notion is also in accordance with that.

The Polygoon news was initially started in 1918 as film news in film theatres. As there was no television at the time, this was one of the few sources of news (at least in moving images format), and as such remained important until the dawn of television in the 1940's and '50's.

And if we really want "home-made" narration, maybe Keith (Keithwms) can step in, he knows Dutch as well due to having lived here for a few years, but instead of having some horrible "Dutch-English" narration :p, he should be able to do it in proper English. ;)

And as PE stated, the moment the Silver Nitrate is mixed, the Dutch narration mentiones that from that moment on, the lights should be out, but that they didn't of course show that because it would be a bit difficult... :D

Another nice thing was that they also mention testing for possible contaminants that may spoil the film (mercury, silicons from clothing AND radioactive particles!, well, we sure were in the middle of the cold war with aboveground atomic blast going off about every day :o)

David A. Goldfarb
02-03-2009, 08:20 AM
That looked like it was originally 16mm and converted by telecine. Even if Kodak has an English language copy in their archives, I wouldn't expect a digital conversion any time soon.

Photo Engineer
02-03-2009, 09:24 AM
The Agfa animation of slide coating is pretty interesting. It has been posted here on APUG, but I have been unable to locate the video again.

Radioactivity has indeed been a problem for Kodak. All buildings include a foot bath for shoes to wash off contaminants, and all lab workers have to change into clothing supplied by EK and laundered by their approved facility. We even have to use EK approved ink and pens. Some inks contaminate emulsions.

The "pink cool aid" looks like the Rhodium Chloride solution used to adjust emulsion speed and contrast among other things. But, I did not catch them saying anything in particular there. My German is fading, but between it and English, I got a fair amount of the narration just by knowing what was going on.

I firmly believe that this film was probably made at least 10 years earlier than the copyright date, due to the equipment in use. The stuff I saw in 1965, just 7 years later, was so so different, it would have taken major expenditures to update it all in that short of a time. We had modern control rooms, slide hoppers and pumped computerized making in paper manufacturing at that time. Forklifts run by computer ran on guided paths in the dark and the cold to pick up batches of chemicals in bakelite tubs and then computers automatically mixed them.

Gelatin was rapidly melted in tubs by inserting steam filled rods into the container and the gel just liquified almost instantaneously. That is one of the things that impressed me. Seeing how fast gelatin could be melted. That was one of the things they showed us in the light.

And, watching them begin a production run at slow speed, and then watching and then hearing (it went dark) the machine get up to full speed and knowing that this huge master roll was winding out in back of you and winding up coated in front of you was pretty amazing.

The fork lifts removing master rolls had to move fast to get the old one off and get a new core onto the pillow blocks to allow a smooth transition before running out the slack in the line. All of this was like a ballet. I too wish they could show it all. I doubt if they ever will.

I think what they did show was frozen at the level that was captured by the Germans during WWII actualy. It reminds me a bit of what I have seen of those old plants.

PE

MikeSeb
02-03-2009, 09:30 AM
It is fascinating to contemplate how things could be actually made, with such precision, in such quantities. I have had a long fascination with industrial-scale undertakings like this. Elegant and beautiful.

Ray Rogers
02-03-2009, 09:57 AM
The Agfa animation of slide coating is pretty interesting. It has been posted here on APUG, but I have been unable to locate the video again.

I would love to see that one... anyone know where it is?



I firmly believe that this film was probably made at least 10 years earlier than the copyright date, due to the equipment in use.PE
Well, I am half guessing that that windup ticket is dated 6/3/47

alan doyle
02-03-2009, 10:14 AM
thanks for this i love these old clips...
i assume this was made for the southern states of america as his accent was difficult to understand.
as my old gran would say..
danke,
Alle mensen worden vrij en gelijk in waardigheid en rechten geboren. Zij zijn begiftigd met verstand en geweten, en behoren zich jegens elkander in een geest van broederschap te gedragen.

Ray Rogers
02-03-2009, 10:21 AM
That looked like it was originally 16mm and converted by telecine. Even if Kodak has an English language copy in their archives, I wouldn't expect a digital conversion any time soon.

Interesting. I know of a 16 mm film about how paper is made....
What clues are the give away that this film was a 16 mm too?

In any case, there were a lot of educational films done on 16 mm.
Kodak has two other interesting (to me anyway) films, one on glass blowing and one on oh I would have to go check but anyway, bell curves and distribution of varriance around the mean or something like that.

Someone mentioned getting help finding the original at Kodak... that is probably a dead end, GEH would be likelier, but about a year ago I inquired and came up empty - but then again, not all of their collection is in the catalogues.

I know someone who has the paper film, but I have not been able to get him to keep his promise of sharing it yet. :( It may be even older than this one; it is a slient 16 mm.

Sal Santamaura
02-03-2009, 11:40 AM
...What clues are the give away that this film was a 16 mm too?...From the "latest news" page of the site which hosts that film:


How film is made
The lab got a very nice present, a 16mm colour film titled; 'How film is made'. It shows how a black/white still photo film is made from the beginning to the end. You get a very good idea how even today our cine films are also produced! Don't forget the film is dated 1958. Click this page to view the 18 minute film, in Dutch language and full colour. (Depending on your internet connection it might take some time to load.) Many thanks to Ton, Rene, Andre, Nico and Erwin!
[30 January 2009].

wildbillbugman
02-03-2009, 12:19 PM
Thanks PE,
I have always wondered how pasta is made!
Regards,
Bill:o

Marco B
02-03-2009, 12:24 PM
Someone mentioned getting help finding the original at Kodak... that is probably a dead end, GEH would be likelier, but about a year ago I inquired and came up empty - but then again, not all of their collection is in the catalogues.

I did, but I am pretty sure the original English language film will be stored safely here in the Netherlands as well, as they must have used it as the source for creating the Dutch narration.

And we have a vast, well managed, archive of everything related to our television history here in the Netherlands that contains literally hundreds of thousands of hours of film, video and sound (radio) material going back decades. The entire archive of the Polygoon news is now managed by the "Nederlands Instituut voor Beeld en Geluid" in Hilversum, the Netherlands. They probably have it.

I am sure they can dig it up, question is, is it worth it and is someone willing to pay for the extraction of the archive and a necessary conversion to digital film format... :o

Let alone any owner / copyright issues related to putting it on the internet...

Joe Grodis
02-03-2009, 12:52 PM
Super flick! Thank You for Sharing!!

amuderick
02-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Could they have been discussing using radioactive alpha emitters to remove static electricity from the acetate roll before coating? Polonium-210 static brushes on an industrial scale?

Just as Kodak would never reveal the details of today's coating operation, in 1958, they were probably just as concerned about what the competition could glean from a public video. So, you publish a video that still looks awesome but is 15 years out of date. Useless to the competition. Still makes everyone feel swell. Same thing happens today...that and subtle disinformation campaigns inserted into these videos. It is not noticed by a casual watcher, but a competitor would be thrown out of kilter if they tried to follow the 'example'.

dyetransfer
02-03-2009, 04:03 PM
I wonder why it is only men who work the coating lines, etc. And only women working the packaging area? Maybe it was because of exposure of (potentially) pregnant woment to toxic chemicals? Or is that concept too advanced for the limited eco-awareness of the 1940s?

Regards - Jim

Photo Engineer
02-03-2009, 04:38 PM
I wonder why it is only men who work the coating lines, etc. And only women working the packaging area? Maybe it was because of exposure of (potentially) pregnant woment to toxic chemicals? Or is that concept too advanced for the limited eco-awareness of the 1940s?

Regards - Jim

Jim;

All of the above. Today, AFAIK, men still predominate.

PE

DWThomas
02-03-2009, 05:19 PM
PE,

The film shows some reasonably sophisticated control technology; I presume achieved with gearing and other electro-mechanical devices. Do you know when computers started to be integrated into the process control systems?



A surprising amount of control technology prior to computers used pneumatics. The last company I worked for had a line of pneumatic controllers that were still selling into the 1980s. We had one little gizmo that could output an air pressure equal to the square root of an input pressure! Pressures were on the order of 5 to 15 PSI.

Film makers might have embraced computerized stuff sooner than others, it was at least theoretically capable of higher precision. But as late as the 1970s and 80s, computer control was viewed with suspicion in many companies. Pneumatic and electro-mechanical systems had a reputation for being installed, tweaked, then running for twenty or thirty years, something even today's computerized systems struggle to do.

DaveT

Photo Engineer
02-03-2009, 05:32 PM
We had air piped into all labs in KRL. The only equipment run by air pressure were mixers. We used tiny compressed air stirrers with prop mixers on them. They made a high pitched whining noise when at speed but did the typical putt-putt at low speeds. They were quite economical when doing multiple melts for coating. With 24 cans in the CTB and little tiny mixers over them, the lab sounded like it had a bad asthma attack. :D

Or a bunch of whining cats.

Larger scales used huge electric mixers, many with shrouds to prevent arcing when solvents were added.

PE

Ray Rogers
02-03-2009, 06:10 PM
I wonder why it is only men who work the coating lines, etc. And only women working the packaging area? Maybe it was because of exposure of (potentially) pregnant woment to toxic chemicals? Or is that concept too advanced for the limited eco-awareness of the 1940s?

Regards - Jim
Hi Jim-

Very perceptive. I was going to bring it up myself but you got there first:)

First, if you think in terms of evolution, the men problably designed and built, then helped design and had built, the complicated machines and thus had a deeper knowledge of their functioning. The other stages, esp. packaging labeling etc. were even done using children in the good old days! I can imagine that perhaps the level of compentency required and the cost of a mistake, was lower in post production stages... and there is no certainity that the wages were the same either, so there might have been economic reasons at play too.

I have seen this division of labor transend political, economic, linguistic and geographic borders. There seems to be a heavy concentration of women in post sensitization phases, with perhaps more men in research.
German, Dutch, British, Japanese and American companies all hired women to do much of the routine repetitive chores (actually I don't have enough information on what the men in these companies actually did; in any case, it seemed the companies hired more women than men, true or not)

[Seeing this for the first time is a real shocking eye-opener to the naive passer-by. I first had this awkward feeling upon visiting NY's 47th St. Photo (many years ago) where it seemed every employee belonged to the same relegion; not that that implies necessarilly some specfic impropriety, but it does beg the question: What, they don't hire non-followers?]

Jim, what was the male:female ratio you experienced first hand in your own visits?

archphoto
02-03-2009, 06:17 PM
Thanks Sal, great show !
It reminded me of so many photographic things when I started in photography as a 10 year old, back in the early 60's.

Peter

Ray Rogers
02-03-2009, 06:19 PM
Could they have been discussing using radioactive alpha emitters to remove static electricity from the acetate roll before coating?

No. They were discussing the testing of air for radioactive particles.