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jgjbowen
03-16-2009, 05:54 PM
John;

The problem prompting this thread was how much there should be, and did I address most of the questions out there?

PE

Ron,

Perhaps you could publish a pdf of your book on CD. It certainly keeps your costs to a minimum. You could keep a list of the purchasers of your book and send them an e-mail supplement to handle new/updated information, or sell a revised second edition if it merits the effort.

The important thing is to get something out the door. We will all be at a great loss if something should happen that prevents you from passing your knowledge down to future generations. Sounds like you've got it 99.44% done and the last .56% could take forever to finish. As they say in the movie business "a movie is NEVER finished, just finally abandoned."

Bruce Barlow released his "Finely Focused" pdf CD without illustrations, then later added the illustrations and sent all of the early purchasers an "updated" version free of charge.

I look forward to the release of both the book and DVD.

dwross
03-17-2009, 01:56 PM
Ron,

I think John's idea is excellent. It seems to be the way things are being done in today's publishing climate, and it would be a great way to start generating an income stream from all your hard work and investment. I know my ideas on what counts as 'real publishing' have been steadily evolving, and I'm sure that is true for most of us. You could sell a kaboodle of information, one chapter at a time.

And, for anyone who may have forgotten or be new to this forum, here's a sample of Ron's work (posted on the Photographers Formulary webpage, with narration by the most excellent Tony Mournian).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4q0Ryh9pBE

Graham06
03-27-2009, 08:49 AM
PE, do you know about http://www.lulu.com/ ?
A few friends have written their own books, and the service is perfectly suited to them. I doubt there are a million people out there waiting to buy your book. Lulu looks like it will save you hassle and risk, and you might even make something.

Photo Engineer
03-27-2009, 08:51 AM
I have information on several web publishers including POD sites such as booklocker.com. I am working with associate to find the appropriate venue.

PE

sanking
03-27-2009, 05:40 PM
Ron,

I am sorry to hear that the blade project did not work out. You invested a lot of time and energy and hopefully that will be appreciated by those who purchase your book, and I will be one of the first.

I would suggest that folks might want to consider threaded rods for applying the emulsion. If heated you just run the rod over the paper and it applies the emulsion evenly, dissipating bubbles formed by the cooling gelatin and pushing any surface debris away. I have been using these rod for sizing art papers for the final support for carbon printing and the gelatin layer I put on is probably close to the wet height of your paper emulsions.

Anyone interested in threaded rods should consult with RD Specialties for your needs. http://www.rdspecialties.com/Page.asp?Script=1

I think this may be a more practical alternative for some people than the blades, and especially since the blades won't be available.

Sandy King







I am getting out of it! Too frustrating. I'm just reviewing it for a Q&A in the book along with film coating.

I am also getting out of the business because it is too difficult to find a shop that wants to do this type of work at all, and do it well. I have to use 2 shops, one for the coarse work of cutting and grinding, drilling and tapping, and another for polishing and finishing. Actually both shops resist doing it and it takes forever to get a blade or a group of them made, sometimes over a year.



PE

Kirk Keyes
03-27-2009, 07:57 PM
Sandy - What's the price of the rods you linked to - they don't seem to want to publish pricing. I'm thinking like for something that would give a 5 inch or 8 inch usable area.

Photo Engineer
03-27-2009, 08:13 PM
They are very messy and wasteful of emulsion. They are better than many other methods, quite accurate, but more difficult to control for absolute laydown. You have to build a well to prevent paper swell and other problems such as forming a "V" shaped defect at the head end of the sheet of paper. After seeing Mark use one, I decided that the Kodak method was more productive.

These work best with thick coatings, and those which do not cause severe variations with coating thickness. They also work well when the chemicals you are spreading are not expensive.

Mark Osterman and I have tried them out. Mark has several different types of these rods. Webster is an eastern suburb of Rochester where this company is located.

PE

dwross
03-27-2009, 08:16 PM
http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/PaperAndCoating/MapTopic.htm#PaperCoating

Denise Ross
www.thelightfarm.com

Kirk Keyes
03-27-2009, 08:18 PM
"I'm sure Denise can fill in the gaps that I've left out..."

It looks like she already beat me to it with the link above!

rmazzullo
03-27-2009, 09:00 PM
Hello PE,

Can you please tell me which alloy of stainless steel you were using for your coating blades?

Thanks,

Bob M.

Photo Engineer
03-27-2009, 09:13 PM
308 or 316. Those are the best.

PE

Photo Engineer
03-27-2009, 09:17 PM
http://www.thelightfarm.com/Map/PaperAndCoating/MapTopic.htm#PaperCoating

Denise Ross
www.thelightfarm.com

Good try.

Something similar to this was one of my first designs as noted in the OP.

There are problems with the tape wrapping wearing on the paper surface and causing uneven coating and there are also problems with leakage. I'm sure that they work well, but are high maintenance. I also feel that sensitizing dyes, hardeners and solvents may accumulate in the plastic. But, this is for the user to determine.

PE

sanking
03-27-2009, 09:21 PM
I put down some fairly thin emulsions with the coating rod and despite Ron's caveats believe they would work. Of course, I always coat on a perfectly level surface, and wet out and squeegee the paper or plastic to be coated to a hard flat surface (galvanized steel or glass plate). In any event, there is very little waste in my procedure because I first spread the emulsion and then run the rod over the coating. The key to the way I work is that the rod is heated to a high temperature.

No idea how Mark Osterman works, only know him by reputation, but he may have the right rods and not use an appropriate procedure.

In any event, I definitely believe the rods are worth trying.'

Kirk, I have not ordered a rod from RD in several years, but they were quite inexpensive at the time. If they work you could waste a lot of emulsion before reaching the price of one of the speciality blades.

Sandy King



They are very messy and wasteful of emulsion. They are better than many other methods, quite accurate, but more difficult to control for absolute laydown. You have to build a well to prevent paper swell and other problems such as forming a "V" shaped defect at the head end of the sheet of paper. After seeing Mark use one, I decided that the Kodak method was more productive.

These work best with thick coatings, and those which do not cause severe variations with coating thickness. They also work well when the chemicals you are spreading are not expensive.

Mark Osterman and I have tried them out. Mark has several different types of these rods. Webster is an eastern suburb of Rochester where this company is located.

PE

Photo Engineer
03-27-2009, 10:17 PM
I coat on a level and flat surface, with cold paper and hot emulsion. Well, see the OP for my description, it is all there.

The rod works, with quite a mess. I usually coat 0.005" - 0.007". When Sandy and I coated carbon, we coated 0.010" - 0.020". IDK what difference this makes. I don't remember what Mark used, and he is away giving a show in AZ.

I don't wish to argue the point as it may work. IDK. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I just know that Kodak Research has used the coating blade method for over 50 years, probably closer to 100 years by now :). It works! It is hard for me to get low cost blades and is too much of a bother, but they do work. My blades, done in quantity, are probably 1/2 the cost of a one-off!

PE

sanking
03-27-2009, 11:43 PM
Ron,

I don't wish to argue any point with you either. I merely suggested that the threaded rods may work and could be an affordable alternative to your blades. I am certain that the Kodak type blades work, after all you used them professionally for many years. But if there is no way to make those blades so that others can afford them it seems to me that other alternatives should be considered.

Sandy




I
I don't wish to argue the point as it may work. IDK. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I just know that Kodak Research has used the coating blade method for over 50 years, probably closer to 100 years by now :). It works! It is hard for me to get low cost blades and is too much of a bother, but they do work. My blades, done in quantity, are probably 1/2 the cost of a one-off!

PE

dwross
03-28-2009, 08:31 AM
Good try.

Something similar to this was one of my first designs as noted in the OP.

There are problems with the tape wrapping wearing on the paper surface and causing uneven coating and there are also problems with leakage. I'm sure that they work well, but are high maintenance. I also feel that sensitizing dyes, hardeners and solvents may accumulate in the plastic. But, this is for the user to determine.

PE

This helps me understand a statement in your OP. I was quite sure I remembered a conversation with you a couple of years ago where you said you'd never tried a glass emulsion metering system (i.e.'well'). It sounds like you tried out something made of plastic. There is no plastic in my system, unless you count the replaceable Mylar tape. Mylar film tape is almost indestructible and is precisely manufactured to thickness specs. I used a puddle pusher yesterday with a wrapping of tape that's been on it since before Christmas - and I coat paper or glass plates every other day. In point of fact, glass is extremely low maintenance. Without set screws and a separate blade assembly, a glass well is much easier and quicker to clean and dry between coatings.

I know you're trying to find a buyer for your emulsion blade plans, and I wish you all the very best luck with that. I loved your 4x5 blade until the set screws wore out. But, please be open to alternative ways of coating. There's no such thing as too many options. Sandy is spot-on about the cost issue, and different people will work best with different tools.

Don't forget your goal of selling books and DVD's. I suspect you could see a reasonable profit from those if people weren't afraid there wasn't going be a way to coat.

And, one more thing. The glass emulsion coating system is not a 'good try'. When I coat emulsion on the glossy baryta paper that Photographers' Formulary sells, it is indistinguishable from a commercial paper. And I can coat a small piece of paper or a piece up to 12" wide equally well.

d

Photo Engineer
03-28-2009, 09:05 AM
Denise;

I am NOT looking for a buyer for the plans and I never have! I don't know where you got that idea. The schematics will be in the book. These plans were drawn up by one of my workshop students and he has given me permission to publish them. They are much better than my originals. In addition, my blades are in the hands of many people who can reproduce them from the original model if they wish. I have no reservations about that.

I am sure that your coating equipment works well. I just found what I had put together along those lines to be unsatisfatory for a variety of reasons. I have no problem cleaning and drying my blades between coatings. A quick dip in hot water, rinse, and dry with a towel! In fact, since the entire assembly is stainless steel, you can wash well at the end of a session and let the blade air dry.

As for many of our coating practices, well, they differ. To each his own. The blade method is most familiar and satisfactory to me as I learned using them at EK and we used at least 3 different models for paper and film along with what was used in production which was very similar. It has a long, successful history behind it that goes back to the early days of photography.

As for a "good try", well, yes your coating well is. The alternative is "bad try". I hope you see that this was meant to be a positive, not a negative statement. I am sorry you took it the opposite way. As I've repeatedly said, "if it works for you, use it!" and this holds true here as well for you and for your potential customers.

Sandy;

My comments in this thread are regarding coating on FB paper support only. IIRC, you used YUPO for coating. The rules differ when using YUPO, RC, Film and Glass as opposed to FB. If so, this explains some of our differences.

I agree that for your carbon coatings, this method is not optimum, nor is it cost effective. We aggred on that at the outset two years ago or so. OTOH, I found the rods to be messy and very cost ineffective for silver halide emulsions. They would be wonderful for albumen, carbon and a number of other processes, but very expensive for Pt/Pd for example.

All;

This thread was meant to determine the extent of my coverage of paper coating, centering on using coating blades such as I was trained with. I wanted to see if I had touched all bases. I had not intended to create a debate on who's method is better or worse, nor do I wish to here. I have found that some methods did not suit me and this was based on years of practical work in the lab and the work of many who designed equipment at EK for this type of work. That is the reason that I settled on this method.

I have film blades from 120 size up to paper blades of 16" width. I have seen photos at Kodak of equipment like this that coats up to 40" wide on film and paper both, and also a similar method for glass plates.

My statements here are not meant to imply that any other method is poorly designed or faulty. You will have to determine that for yourself, just as I did several years ago.

PE

sanking
03-28-2009, 09:55 AM
Ron,

I did not suggest the threaded rods based on my experience with coating carbon tissue. For that I don't use a threaded rod but a plain rod which I roll over flexible magnetic sheeting material which determines the thickness of the coating. And my carbon coatings are quite thick, with wet height up to 1.5mm.

However, I have used threaded rods to apply thin gelatin emulssions (8-10%) to paper for sizing, and I have also used the rod to make POP paper, which also contained gelatin and a silver solution. In both cases I was able to get even coatings, though like everything else it takes practice to use the rod efficiently. By efficiently I mean getting an even coating while keeping as much of the solution as possible on the paper to avoid mess and waste. If you use an oversize piece of paper there is very little mess as it is relatively easy to keep all of the solution on the paper. I always pre-wet the paper and squeegee it to the coating surface to keep it flat while coating.

Pre-wetting may or may not be appropriate for coating your type of emulsions, I don't know. I merely suggested the use of the threaded coating rod as a possible alternative to the blades because the rods are relatively inexpensive and available in a wide range of thread depths so if someone were interested in experimenting with them they could do so for a relatively small expenditure.

Sandy

Photo Engineer
03-28-2009, 11:00 AM
Sandy;

I understand fully. That is the reason for the last paragraph in my post above. Each person should determine the suitibility of the coaitng methhod(s) they choose.

And yes, the carbon tissue is so thick that it can hardly be called tissue. It does not work well with the coating blades, but it can work. It is just not cost effective.

I have worked with both wetted and dry sheets of paper. Either can work, but the wetted sheets are more cumbersome in the lab and take longer to dry. I can't say as it was worse though, just more time consuming for the same result in the cases I tested. We always used dry paper at EK.

PE

rmazzullo
03-29-2009, 05:30 PM
Hello PE,

Do you know if there a clear picture, (or pictures) of the stainless steel coating blade from different sides that might have been posted on APUG, or perhaps elsewhere?

Thanks,

Bob M.