Lodima Fine Art Paper ready to take orders

[sanking]

Wow!!

I have been following this thread for the past day or so, and almost replied to comments several times.

Thank God for the Delete button.

I agree with my friend Michael Kadillak. The road to respect for your thoughts, opinions and work is to respect the thoughts, opinions and work of others. And if you find it impossible to do that, shut up. Life is really that simple.

Sandy King

[MurrayMinchin]

The road to respect for your thoughts, opinions and work is to respect the thoughts, opinions and work of others.


It always helps when those thoughts are shared with a sense of mutual respect.

(Above comment not directed towards you, Sandy).

Murray

[keeds]

Just my two penny worth (and seeing as it's sterling it aint worth anything)... I've tried some of the initial run and I like it. I'm glad to hear it is now deemed to be G3 and that a G2 will be made. I will be ordering some for 8x10 and 7x17. I like it, I want to use it. The other thing is that I will use it with Neutol WA as that's what I use and the results were really good.

Never seen any of Michael or Paula's prints except for those on the web. Some look interesting, most don't. That's just me. I'm am however very happy that they have expended a lot of time and effort getting this paper made. If you like it, buy and use it. If you don't.... don't.

[PVia]

Finally, a level-headed voice!

I wholeheartedly agree with what Sandy said....

The ad hominem attacks on this thread, which were not started by the OP, are totally unwarranted. For one member to directly attack the photographs of another is beyond the most egregious behavior I have seen here.

Gentlemen, please agree to disagree, and keep the personal attacks out of the difference in opinion about processes.

[Trevor Crone]

Good heavens this thread has become more entertaining then a TV soap.

I do hope it gets the rights for a Film:)

[c6h6o3]

I agree. However I was directing the question specifically to michael... Per his initial platinum comment.

It was at Michael Smith's suggestion that I see the Irving Penn platinum show at the National Gallery. He said that it contained some of the finest prints he had ever seen. It was at Paula Chamlee's suggestion that I get to know the work of Cy DeCosse for the same reason.

Paul Strand I stumbled onto all by myself.

[Mahler_one]

The link takes one to some fabulous work! Thanks for supplying the information. Really, I don't believe that I have ever seen Platinum/Palladium prints of such depth and to have achieved such an "ethereal" quality. The prints must have been magnitudes better when seen in "real time". Some of the prints are redolent of the work of Robert Kipness, a well known artist of a few years back. Once again, I thank you for directing us to such great prints.

Ed

[Bob Carnie]

Interesting that they do not use aluminum, I am wondering how they get around the inevitable stretch , shrinkage that happens when paper is wet, It is possible that the multiple hits are accents*skelatin films as you suggests, One hit for detail which basically is what happens in the L channel if you work with LAB and a slight blur for the other mask much like one does to the A & B channels in LAB for colour work.
getting these separations*or as I would describe as detail and then accent films would be quite easy on a Image Setter or Light Jet.
The order of the hits I would believe would also be important.
I was just turned onto Kodak Kodagraph Mapping film which may be the product they are using, I am actually trying right now the Rollie Ortho film in large rolls.
Large strosser punch system with a flip top vacumn easal would be the ticket for exposure and a large enough sink for the processes you want with good humidity as I learned from Sandy King and Mark Nelson.
LVT is a image setter which comes in different sizes, 8x10 and 16x20 I believe . They will record digital files onto Tmax film... Larry G here has one I believe he could give a better description than I .
Lambda , is a RGB laser enlarger , up to 30 inch which I use for all types of end processes, not excluding final film for Alt processes , Black and White and Colour, I am working on the Black and White films as we speak .
LAB is a colour space that some printers, myself included that allows one to work in different ways than traditional RGB workflow.
It is like making using a sledge hammer to put in a finishing nail if not treated correctly , but for sharpening and contrast control there is not a better channel to use than the L of LAB.
Basically there are 10 channels available to work from and as well the inverse of them, RGB, LAB , CMYK which would then total 20 channels for potential accent usages.
By being able to harness these channels one can create masks that would be very valuable for Salto's work. I would imagine his lab is using these channels.
For colour separation work you only have to google Todd Gangler or John Bentley and you will find there is a contemporary history of multiple register full colour printing onto carbon tissues in the USA and Canada.
I have seen both their work and it is spectacular, basically a improvement of the Ultra Stable Process which I played around with in the mid 90's myself, but did not persue as my silver printing business was vibrant and the image setters and scanners required , at the time were way beyond my financial reach.
Today I have scanners and a monster image setter, and am very interested to make film and prints for my friends in the industry. I am not sure of the marketability of this thinking but since the 80's I have dreamed of such an posssibility.
If you want to see how these films work on your Lodima Paper you can contact me privately and I will try to make a film for your process. I am currently doing this with others for there particular process and it would be interesting to see how your paper responds. Unfortunately I have no experience in your paper as I am a Silver and Colour printer and currently am in love with mural silver prints off an enlarger .
The permanent colour prints will be for me and I have a couple of world class mentor's talking me through the jungle of 4 colour separation films on real film , making of the tissues and as well the process of these tissues, and I would probably only offer this service for those photographers willing to invest $$ into what I believe will be a costly process and of course my mentors who would have axcess to my Lab at any time.

I do apologize to the OP and the membership of APUG for this digital diversion, but the mixing of technology's that is happening today is and will be the way of the future for photographic fine prints. It is ongoing behind the scenes and my 2 cents is that being aware of the possibilities for the different process we use is important .

I have seen most end processes from Azo to Platinum, Silver to Lith, done by current top end printer/photographers and historical printer/photographers. I love them all and from my eyes cannot say one is better than the other.

A topic for a different thread , If I was deserted on an island what refreshment, what music and what photograph would I want ,



Cold Beer, Willy Nelson and a August Sander worker print.








Salto: the paper is not on aluminum.

Yes, multiple registration from digital files. Then multiple exposures.

They use Kodak film.

What is LVT? What is LAB?

Salto's color stuff is, I believe several years away. They know what goal they want; getting there is not easy.

Michael A. Smith

[jovo]

Bob, if I could take a year off from work, I'd apply to be your lab slave! ;)


Oh...and Single Malt, an entire Bach Well Tempered Clavier array (any of several pianists or harpsichordists), and a Kurita platinum print on gampi paper.

[PVia]

I WILL take a year off from work and be your lab slave...!

[BobNewYork]

Frankly, I'd forgo the music!!!

Bob H

[Michael A. Smith]

Bob,

Some of what you have so kindly written is beyond me. I will try to explain as best I can what Salto does.

They use a very old image setter. They can go up to one-meter wide.

They do not use PhotoShop. They use a Barco system. Or at least it used to be called Barco. The name may have changed in the last couple of years. To update the software a couple of years ago cost them 75,000 Euros. I don't know how they do it, as they have no money. I couldn't say if Barco was now LAB.

The separations involve only one skeleton black, I believe.

I do not know which Kodak film they use. It would be some kind of copy film.

Besides the platinum printing they do, they also make carbon prints and tri-color carbro. The least of what they do now is print books. They told me that in the future they will print only our books and any they do themselves. This is because they do not make any money on books. And it takes a lot of work--four films for each form. They have tried computer to plate, but find it cannot give the highest quality. And each of the four films must be made at the same time. Once we had to change a word in the text--black film only--and they told me that had to re-do all four films, because to get the highest quality they all had to be made at the same time. I think that is a humidity and registration issue.

They are developing an ink-jet printer that will have 32 inks.

The Louvre made a digital capture of the Mona Lisa in 23 layers. Salto has been asked to print it. They also helped develop the $400,000 camera that made the capture.

There is someone who is making very high end digital capture of paintings in the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston and selling digital prints of the paintings for in the five figures. He told me he had the ultimate capture system. A few years ago I introduced this fellow to Salto and he said, "I thought I had the ultimate capture system. Theirs is better."

Many thanks for your kind offer to see how your films will work on Lodima paper. We can talk about this.

Michael A. Smith

[sanking]

Bob,

Michael said that the prints were not on aluminum. That does not preclude the possibility that the paper is temporarily affixed to aluminum or some other rigid support and then separated once the printing is completed. I believe this is the method used by Keith Taylor in the large color gum prints.

Sandy King






Interesting that they do not use aluminum, I am wondering how they get around the inevitable stretch , shrinkage that happens when paper is wet, It is possible that the multiple hits are accents*skelatin films as you suggests, One hit for detail which basically is what happens in the L channel if you work with LAB and a slight blur for the other mask much like one does to the A & B channels in LAB for colour work.
getting these separations*or as I would describe as detail and then accent films would be quite easy on a Image Setter or Light Jet.

[Bob Carnie]

Hi Sandy

That is exactly how I intend to proceed, I will cold mount thick paper to aluminum , Punch the aluminum and subsequent films and multiple pass.
Once the finished I will peel off the finished print with no adehsive and no aluminum*diabond*
John Bentley uses a method of mylar*melinex* films are reversed and when completed the whole image is squeegeed to thick paper for a beautiful relief which you and I have seen.
This stage drives him insane and has taken years to get the peel apart perfect.
With the aluminum and cold adhesive , it should be more expensive but less hassels and as well the film can all be emulsion right reading.


Bob,

Michael said that the prints were not on aluminum. That does not preclude the possibility that the paper is temporarily affixed to aluminum or some other rigid support and then separated once the printing is completed. I believe this is the method used by Keith Taylor in the large color gum prints.

Sandy King

[Bob Carnie]

Michael

Lab is one of the oldest colour spaces and probably not Barco
There are many platinum printers using image setters for their films, Myron Zabol is one here in Toronto who does beautiful platinum work , though he does not do multiple passes which I personally believe is a wonderful way of building up density and contrast in a platinum print.
Until one of the manufacturer comes up with a permanent system for colour imaging I believe the tri colour carbon with K masks is the way to go.
I am in the process of having two to three new automatic roller Processors like jobo produced that will hold 8x10 up to 30 x40 sheets of film.
I only wish this economy would change, but for now I will use the lambda and Jobo and keep on experimenting with the help of some great people, some of who are on this Site.

A good image setter is not out of the reach for many who need to make film, there are lots out there, still technicians who know how to make them work and service.
My Lambda set us back a few years but eventually it will be paid and working for years.

Multiple hit printing is best explained as this... If you have ever split contrast printed on silver you know what filter you need to create your vision, this combination of tones is what is required, but first you need to make the registered film to make it happen.
Look backward in time and consider what Jerry Uellsman*sp*did with masks to make his magic happen, then apply this mask making to a print and you have it all .


Bob,

Some of what you have so kindly written is beyond me. I will try to explain as best I can what Salto does.

They use a very old image setter. They can go up to one-meter wide.

They do not use PhotoShop. They use a Barco system. Or at least it used to be called Barco. The name may have changed in the last couple of years. To update the software a couple of years ago cost them 75,000 Euros. I don't know how they do it, as they have no money. I couldn't say if Barco was now LAB.

The separations involve only one skeleton black, I believe.

I do not know which Kodak film they use. It would be some kind of copy film.

Besides the platinum printing they do, they also make carbon prints and tri-color carbro. The least of what they do now is print books. They told me that in the future they will print only our books and any they do themselves. This is because they do not make any money on books. And it takes a lot of work--four films for each form. They have tried computer to plate, but find it cannot give the highest quality. And each of the four films must be made at the same time. Once we had to change a word in the text--black film only--and they told me that had to re-do all four films, because to get the highest quality they all had to be made at the same time. I think that is a humidity and registration issue.

They are developing an ink-jet printer that will have 32 inks.

The Louvre made a digital capture of the Mona Lisa in 23 layers. Salto has been asked to print it. They also helped develop the $400,000 camera that made the capture.

There is someone who is making very high end digital capture of paintings in the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston and selling digital prints of the paintings for in the five figures. He told me he had the ultimate capture system. A few years ago I introduced this fellow to Salto and he said, "I thought I had the ultimate capture system. Theirs is better."

Many thanks for your kind offer to see how your films will work on Lodima paper. We can talk about this.

Michael A. Smith