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Ole
09-10-2009, 04:03 AM
Don't worry about getting the standard close enough to focus a 65mm lens on the 6x9. It works fine on mine - and a 90mm lens on the 9x12.

renes
09-10-2009, 04:15 AM
BTW, the 150/4.5 Heliar lens was an optional lens on the 9x12cm Bergheils - mine has that. The bayonet flange should fit on that...

A while ago a group of us on the German large format forum (www.grossformatfotografie.de) had extra flanges made for both 6x9 and 9x12 Bergheils.

Ole,

Here are the two photos, one is Bergheil 6x9 fited with original Heliar 105m f/4.5 lens - you can see the crew mounting ring (which thighten the bayonet flange to the lens) and it goes just into the hole of the lensboard. The socond one is Bergheil 9x12 with Heliar 150mm f/4.5, the outer rear lens covers almost all the hole space and there is not enought free space (maybe 1mm) for the crew mounting ring...

The interior diameter of bayonet flange is 44mm, the mounting Heliar 150mm rear lens is 43mm... Far more, the Heliar 150mm shutter diameter is aprox. 79mm, but the lensobard is 73mm - so the lens does not lean on it. I do not know how it can work on your Begheil 9x12 with Heliar 150mm... you must probably have larger bayonet flange and larger hole in the lensobard.

Could you check it?

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8415/mg2543.jpg

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/166/mg2540.jpg

Ole
09-10-2009, 04:58 AM
I can check it, but not before next week. I'm in the middle of the Norwegian Sea at the moment...

renes
09-10-2009, 05:12 AM
Ok, than I will wait with selling or exchanging my Heliar 150mm.

Do you use with your Bergheils longer focal lenses (165mm-240mm)?

BTW, where is the best place to buy shutters?

I see a lot of vintage lenses with accurate size of the rear lens that can fit to Bergheil and yet there is enought place for the mounting screw ring, but most are fited into shutters with much larger attaching mount and when you screw the mounting ring on them they go out of the hole lenspoard space. My Heliars rear lens diameter are just a bit lesser than outer diameter of the attaching mount element. Looks perfect design. That gives me hope I can use chosen and favorite lens by adopting it to the right attaching mount (with just a bit larger mounting srew than diameter of the rear lens)...

but will I have to make such attaching mount or can I buy it too?

I would be grateful if you give me an advice what steps should I make with looking for proper lens with shutter (e.g. Goerz Dagor 165-180mm) which I am going to adopte to Bergheil 6x9? How can I be sure I will be able to adopte the chosen lens to Bergheil? It seems that there are a lot issues I should take into consideratiom before I make decision to buy any of them.

Philippe Grunchec
09-10-2009, 10:05 AM
How should I use the three positions marked Z, D, M on the Compur?

Ole
09-10-2009, 10:14 AM
Z - Zeit, means "Time". Trip the shutter to open, trip again to close. Do not tension the shutter!
D - Dauer, the same as "Bulb". Shutter opens when release is pushed, and closes when it is released. Do not tension the shutter!
M - Moment, gives the indicated shutter speed. Shutter must be tensioned before pressing release.

Philippe Grunchec
09-10-2009, 11:38 AM
Thanks so much, Ole! My question was really stupid (I speak rather fluent german).
BTW, I did my first test with this lens, using a strobe in the studio, at f:22: the result is... astonishingly good! I wonder how it would perform wide opened...

Ian Grant
09-10-2009, 02:19 PM
Tessar's 135mm/150mm give optimum performance across the field at f22 accoring to Zeiss pre & post WWII, so a similar lens should behave comparably.

I've been disappointed with my Tessar's wider than f16 for my landscape work, but then I'm after critical sharpness, for portraits etc they would be superb.

It also has to be remembered that when you see exhibitions of original prints made pre WWII by well known European photographers with these camera's the enlargements were never very great, ad the images "Jewel" like.

Ian

Philippe Grunchec
09-11-2009, 03:05 AM
Thanks, Ian! BTW I like jewels :)

JPD
09-12-2009, 07:35 AM
I'm planning to someday make, or let someone make, new Bergheil bayonets with different holes to fit smaller shutters.


I would be grateful if you give me an advice what steps should I make with looking for proper lens with shutter (e.g. Goerz Dagor 165-180mm) which I am going to adopte to Bergheil 6x9? How can I be sure I will be able to adopte the chosen lens to Bergheil? It seems that there are a lot issues I should take into consideratiom before I make decision to buy any of them.I wonder if it's possible. I have a 168mm Goerz Dagor, and it came in a Compur 1 that is too large for the 6,5x9 Bergheil. The shutter doesn't work (and can't be repaired), so I keep the lens cells in a tobacco tin waiting for a new shutter. But the threads are special, so they don't fit any shutter I've tried. :(

I also have a 130mm Dagor, which came in a Compur 0. I bought a cheap Voigtländer Avus 6,5x9 for it, and it was a direct fit.

renes
09-12-2009, 09:01 AM
I'm planning to someday make, or let someone make, new Bergheil bayonets with different holes to fit smaller shutters.

I wonder if it's possible. I have a 168mm Goerz Dagor, and it came in a Compur 1 that is too large for the 6,5x9 Bergheil. The shutter doesn't work (and can't be repaired), so I keep the lens cells in a tobacco tin waiting for a new shutter. But the threads are special, so they don't fit any shutter I've tried. :(

Those Dagor 165mm lenses I have seen had too large shutters and attaching mount to fit to Bergheil 6x9, but they are right for 9x12 Bergheil. Dagor's 150mm looks ok. and will fit but longer focal lenses in Goerz Dagor line lenses probably will not to the 6x9. Hope Hugo Meyer, Dallmeyer or even Cook, Bausch&Lomb made 180mm lenses that go to Bergheils 6x9 lensboard... and 210-240mm to Bergheil 9x12 one.

I am not sure but it seems there were variations of Bergheil in each line format and they might differ in diameter of hole lensboard, therefore a few lenses may not fit to one Bergheil but may to another one...

I had Heliar 105mm f/3.5 lens and its rear lens did not go into the lensboard' hole of my 6x9 Bergeil equipped with Heliar 105mm f/4.5 at all.

renes
09-13-2009, 05:46 AM
Does someone know (or have?) if there was any Voigtlander Bergheil repair manual?

Ole
09-13-2009, 11:55 AM
I have a camera manual, but not a repair manual...

renes
09-14-2009, 10:57 AM
Ole, Have you met someone who uses Bergheil 6x9 (or 9x12) DeLuxe green version equiped with Heliar f/3.5 lens?

I am curious if they have larger (diameter) hole in the lensboard... I can not confirm my suppositions...

Ian Grant
09-14-2009, 12:49 PM
Renes, I suspect many 6x9 & 9x12 cameras had slightly different front plates even the same camera but with a different lens, particularly as the older pre-rimset Compur versions as there was no standard shutter used. 4 of my 5 9x12's all use different diameter holes. My Eurynar has by far the largest shutter, and I'd guess an f3.5 Heliar would be in an equally alrge shutter.

Ian

Bob Eskridge
09-14-2009, 08:06 PM
I adapted a 90/6.8 Angulon to my 9X12 Voigtlander Avus. The bed does not intrude. Wasn't sure if Ole was actually using one on his Voigtlander Bergheil.

Philippe Grunchec
09-15-2009, 04:56 AM
Ole, does the manual provide information about the size of the filters for my Radiar? Thanks in advance,
Philippe

JPD
09-16-2009, 08:23 AM
Ole, does the manual provide information about the size of the filters for my Radiar? Thanks in advance,
PhilippeJust measure the outer diameter of the lens mount. It takes push-on filters.

Philippe Grunchec
09-16-2009, 09:46 AM
Thanks, JPD, but push-on filters aren't easy to find and can't be combined. That's the reason why I wanted to buy screwing filters (or adapter)!

Philippe Grunchec
10-01-2009, 11:25 AM
JPD, do you mean that what I vaguely see is not a filter thread, just "striations"?