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renes
09-05-2009, 07:54 AM
Hello to everyone,

It is my first post on APUG forum.
I just bougth two Voigdlander Bergheil cameras: 6x9 with Heliar 105 f/4.5 and RADA film back and 9x12 with Heliar 150mm f/4.5 and 6 film holders. Both are in wonderful condition and Heliars a coated (dated from 1962 and 1955).
I want to use them with b&w landscape photography and need to buy a few lenses more with shutters - preferably TH Cooke, Bausch&Lomb, Dallmeyer or Dagor lenses. For each camera I look for wide ange and long lens: for Bergheil 6x9 around something like 65mm and 165mm focal lenght and for Bergeil 9x12 around 75-90mm and 210mm.

I know they should be compact to be able to fit the hole in front standard, for Bergheil 6x9 the outer rear lens diameter should not be larger than 32mm and for 9x12 one larger than 40mm. The shutters also can not be to large becouse will not base on the front plate - for 6x9 sholud be not wider than 59mm, for 9x12 wider then 73mm.

Need your suggestions which lenses should I fook and go for, I do not have much experiences with vintage lenses. Any hepl will be apreciated.

BTW, my Heliar 150mm f/4.5 seems it will not fit to my 9x12 Bergheil becouse its rear lens diameter is 43mm but front hole diameter is 44mm - there is no space for the ring you screw on the rear to tighten the special flange to the lens but (the ring) must go into the hole. I have compared it with my 6x9 Bergheil and the ring goes just right into the hole. Probably I need Heliar 135mm f/4.3. My Heliar 150 is in mint condition, if someone have 135mm Heliar version in very good condition (or the same focal lenght - Cooke, TH Cooke, Bausch&Lomb, Dallmeyer) and wants to exchange, let me know it please.

Piotr

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2640/mg1792.jpg

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7927/mg1799.jpg

Ian Grant
09-05-2009, 09:06 AM
Welcome to APUG.

It's the shutter size that'll be most important, the 6x9 should be a rim-set Compur 0, and they are standard. A 65mm Super Angulon almost certainly won't fit, but a an Angulon would, or a WA Dagor in a Compur.

The 9x12 again will depend on the shutter, the Dial set Compurs were never standard so it's hard to say much. but you'd need to find the attaching mounts.

Ian

renes
09-07-2009, 11:49 AM
Is it any way I can be sure before purchasing whether the Angulon 65mm f/6.8 wide angle lens will cover the Bergheil's 6x9 size? Is not this 65mm focal lenght too wide for this camera? How can I measure it?

Ian Grant
09-07-2009, 12:17 PM
Look on the Schneider websites, here's one of them (http://www.schneideroptics.com/info/vintage_lens_data/large_format_lenses/angulon/data/6,8-65mm.html) :D

It does cover and full details are given.

Ian

ntenny
09-07-2009, 04:01 PM
The 9x12 again will depend on the shutter, the Dial set Compurs were never standard so it's hard to say much. but you'd need to find the attaching mounts.

Is it just the dialsets? My 9x12 Bergheil has a rimset Compur---does that mean I can swap in anything in another rimset Compur of the same nominal size? (#1, I think.)

-NT

renes
09-07-2009, 06:24 PM
Ian,

I was not presise. I mean how can I know before purchasing the lens, how wide focal lenght my Bergheil 6x9 or 9x12 or any plate camera can accept giving me possibiltity of making pictures without any limitations ?
I want to buy and adopt Angulon 65mm f/6.8 but I am not sure if I can use this focal lenght with my Bergheil 6x9...
excuse me for that maybe simple question.

Ian Grant
09-07-2009, 10:43 PM
Ian,

I was not presise. I mean how can I know before purchasing the lens, how wide focal lenght my Bergheil 6x9 or 9x12 or any plate camera can accept giving me possibiltity of making pictures without any limitations ?
I want to buy and adopt Angulon 65mm f/6.8 but I am not sure if I can use this focal lenght with my Bergheil 6x9...
excuse me for that maybe simple question.

Really you need to look and see what lenses Voightlander sold with the camera, in the 20's/very early 30's.

The 65 mm Angulon has small front & rear cells so will fit, it's whether it will focus, and if you can make a plate to fit it.


Is it just the dialsets? My 9x12 Bergheil has a rimset Compur---does that mean I can swap in anything in another rimset Compur of the same nominal size? (#1, I think.)

-NT

It's the same answer as above, but the restriction is what rear cell will fit through the mount/hole.

The rimset lens is usually a Compur 1, so a 90mm Angulon will fit with an adaptor plate as it's in a Compur 0, I have tried mine on my 2nd Patent Etui, and an unbranded 9x12, and I can focus etc.

But the issue for both of you is the mount to fit the Bergheil's

Ian

renes
09-08-2009, 02:14 AM
Ian,

The mount (special flange) I can make but the question is if I am able to focus with Angulon 65mm...

verney
09-08-2009, 02:24 AM
What is the minimum distance from ground glass to that flange?

Ian Grant
09-08-2009, 02:44 AM
Ian,

The mount (special flange) I can make but the question is if I am able to focus with Angulon 65mm...

Try focusing with a 50mm enlarger lens, in comparison a 65mm will be easier.

As the front standard slides right back into the body there's no reason why you can't focus a 65mm.

A far bigger problem is the 65mm f6.8 will be difficult to ficus on the ground glass, and you may need to make a focus scale. You need to find and try one before spending money.

Iab

Anton Lukoszevieze
09-08-2009, 04:40 AM
Sometimes with wide angle lenses the fold-out bed can come into the angle of view, unless you use front rise.
Hope that makes sense?!

Ian Grant
09-08-2009, 04:51 AM
The 65mm SA certainly gets the bed in shot on my Wista 54DX if I don't use front & rear tilt, but as 65mm on a 6x9 or a 90mm on a 9x12 shouldn't be a problem.

Ian

JPD
09-08-2009, 09:58 PM
A far bigger problem is the 65mm f6.8 will be difficult to ficus on the ground glass, and you may need to make a focus scale. You need to find and try one before spending money....or stop the Heliar down to 5,6 and 1/3 (or 6,3 if the Heliar has the older aperture scale) and see how it looks.

I have a 6,8/130 Dagor on a 6,5x9 Avus, and Steinheil Orthostigmat 6,8/135 on a 9x12 Avus, and have no trouble focusing. But some people might have.

Ian Grant
09-09-2009, 12:38 AM
A lot depends on the focus screen, it's not much different whether 6x9, 9x12 or 5"x4" formats, but in practice the wider angle lenses like the 90mm Angulon & 65mm are harder to focus, there's more of a hot spot in the centre of the screen.

Ian

Philippe Grunchec
09-09-2009, 02:18 AM
I have a Voigtländer Bergheil 9x12 with a 6.8/135 Radiar on Compur: both lens and shutter work perfectly, and I'll try the lens on my Toyo 45AII.

Does someone know which filter thread this lens has? Is it 25.5x0.5?

renes
09-09-2009, 04:14 PM
What is the minimum distance from ground glass to that flange?

I will measure it but tell me where exactly should I place the lens - how far to draw the bellows on bed?

verney
09-10-2009, 01:18 AM
I will measure it but tell me where exactly should I place the lens - how far to draw the bellows on bed?
Distance is measured from the lenses aperture blades (not shutter even though it's almost the same) to ground glass when bellows are racked all the way back.

I asked you this to know if your camera can focus 65mm lens to infinity. You need bellows draw equal to focal length for focusing any lens to infinity, in other words 100mm of bellows extension focuses 100mm lens to infinity. 2x focal length of bellows draw focuses any lens for 1:1 macro shots.

I'm slightly worried that a 65mm lens would get bed of your camera into to the picture.

'Any lens' doesn't include telephoto designs, that's a different story.

Ole
09-10-2009, 02:57 AM
Voigtländer and Schneider were both very early in adopting what has since become the standard shutter sizes, so even a dial-set Compur with a lens from either of those two have a very good chance of matching newer shutters. It's certainly the case for Heliars and Angulons.

A 65mm Angulon should do as a WA lens for the little Bergheil . and you can use it "converted" as a longer lens by removing teh front cell (not wonderfully sharp, but useable).

Same with a 90mm Angulon for the 9x12cm camera.

BTW, the 150/4.5 Heliar lens was an optional lens on the 9x12cm Bergheils - mine has that. The bayonet flange should fit on that...

A while ago a group of us on the German large format forum (www.grossformatfotografie.de) had extra flanges made for both 6x9 and 9x12 Bergheils.

renes
09-10-2009, 03:31 AM
Distance is measured from the lenses aperture blades (not shutter even though it's almost the same) to ground glass when bellows are racked all the way back.

You mean the bellows and lens have to be placed on the bed's slide/rails (just at it's beginning), not in the box?

If so (see the picture, the back base of the bellows/lens arm is placed at the beginning of the slde/rails) than the minimum distance from the front surface of ground glass to the lens blades is about 60mm.

If I rack the bellows a bit back, to have the lens blades right at the beginning of the rails, than the distnce shorten to 48-50mm.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6900/mg2532.jpg

verney
09-10-2009, 03:49 AM
You mean the bellows and lens have to be placed on the bed's slide/rails (just at it's beginning), not in the box?
I'm not familiar with Voigtländer cameras. If you can focus accurately when lens standard is inside the box then fine.