Zeiss Ikon ZI

[swifty]

Hi everyone,
To cut a long story short, I've narrowed my choice of 135 format cameras down to a select few and one of which is the Zeiss Ikon ZI since I've never used a rangefinder before.
I think the Leica M's are a little too expensive so whilst searching for the Zeiss Ikon ZI's, I came across a few new or mint ones for 500-700USD, whilst other seemingly similar models run into the thousands.
I was wondering why there would be such a large discrepancy and whether it is possible that the cheaper ones are fakes. It seem like they are been sold by reputable dealers on ebay with thousands of feedbacks.
The price seem very attractive and hence my skepticism or is that the going price these days.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure I'd go for a 35mm focal length and there are quite a few M-mount 35mm's available. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Dave

[elekm]

Currently, there are no fake Zeiss Ikon rangefinders, if you're referring to the new camera that is manufactured by Cosina.

I would expect used models to run from $800 to $1,200. Are you seeing the less expensive ones in a store or on eBay? As always, be cautious about buying anything that seems like too good of a deal.

The 35mm focal length is a good lens, because it's not too wide. Overall, very versatile. Many people want the extra speed and go for a f/1.2 or f/1.4 lens, while others want a more compact lens and will buy an f/2.8. That's a decision that you need to make. In general, the faster a lens is, the larger it is.

By the way, it's the Zeiss Ikon, not Zeiss Ikon ZI, because ZI is short for Zeiss Ikon, so then you would have to say the Zeiss Ikon Zeiss Ikon.

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

I think you might think screwmount leicas especially with summitar lens. Its a ultra good lens and it will make you very very happy. It makes surprises and teach its qualities to you , this makes Leica different.
I think if you have no idea to select zeiss to leica , leica to zeiss , you should walk a long way.
Dont hurry , buy old popular photography annals and look what you like. If you like zeiss , kodak , leitz , schneider , medium format , big format , than go from its path. I believe there is constant qualities every lens factory keep and differ from other . So old magazines do not lie.
And there is one thing , I think screwmount leicas have very small pupil for viewfinder , exactly opposite to ikon. I believe you found big slr viewfinders death and look for smaller one. Smaller pupil makes you to grasp the composition in a magic way. If you did not understand whats going on , buy 50 years old magazines to 70s.

Best ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

Istanbul

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

And touch a Leica , try its buttery smooth winder , velvetly silent voice. Leica is a school which you can not get the diploma without study. I advise you to study Rembrandt , Vermeer , Da Vinci. When summitar suprises you , you will need a cultural background.

[swifty]

Currently, there are no fake Zeiss Ikon rangefinders, if you're referring to the new camera that is manufactured by Cosina.

I would expect used models to run from $800 to $1,200. Are you seeing the less expensive ones in a store or on eBay? As always, be cautious about buying anything that seems like too good of a deal.

The 35mm focal length is a good lens, because it's not too wide. Overall, very versatile. Many people want the extra speed and go for a f/1.2 or f/1.4 lens, while others want a more compact lens and will buy an f/2.8. That's a decision that you need to make. In general, the faster a lens is, the larger it is.

By the way, it's the Zeiss Ikon, not Zeiss Ikon ZI, because ZI is short for Zeiss Ikon, so then you would have to say the Zeiss Ikon Zeiss Ikon.

Just as an example, here's one of them at an amazing $490 new.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350304388520&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Its an ebay store with a few thousand feedback at near 100%
But like you said, if it seems like too good to be true then it probably is. But I'm not seeing any usual alarm bells other than the seemingly cheap price??
Actually I referred to it as Zeiss Ikon ZI cos I read an article that referred to it as such to distinguish it from all the other Ikons. But the one in the link above is actually the SW (super wide) model of the ZI.

[swifty]

I think you might think screwmount leicas especially with summitar lens. Its a ultra good lens and it will make you very very happy. It makes surprises and teach its qualities to you , this makes Leica different.
I think if you have no idea to select zeiss to leica , leica to zeiss , you should walk a long way.
Dont hurry , buy old popular photography annals and look what you like. If you like zeiss , kodak , leitz , schneider , medium format , big format , than go from its path. I believe there is constant qualities every lens factory keep and differ from other . So old magazines do not lie.
And there is one thing , I think screwmount leicas have very small pupil for viewfinder , exactly opposite to ikon. I believe you found big slr viewfinders death and look for smaller one. Smaller pupil makes you to grasp the composition in a magic way. If you did not understand whats going on , buy 50 years old magazines to 70s.

Best ,

Mustafa Umut Sarac

Istanbul

I actually started in digital and recently bought a MF but am finding it a little bulky although loving the results.
Still keeping the MF but I wanted something smaller so I'm going 135 format and tossing up between a Nikon film camera to go with my existing digital gear or the rangefinder experience.
Since I came across the seemingly cheap price of the ZI on ebay, thought I'd just get some advice on what the going rate should be.

[Jeff L]

Zeiss Ikons, Leicas, or Voigtlander Bessas. All great cameras capable of great quality images.

[Resoman]

Regarding the eBay camera -
"But I'm not seeing any usual alarm bells other than the seemingly cheap price??"
The camera on eBay is the SW super wide version, without a viewfinder and rangefinder, so it's a lot less expensive a camera to build (and sell) than the standard model. It's designed for use with really wide lenses with an auxiliary viewfinder. $490 would be a great price for the standard model, that's for sure...

Gary,
East Snook, TX

[dfoo]

For a Ikon with a viewfinder expect to pay $800+. New they are $1600. I have both the Ikon and two Leicas. The Ikon is excellent. It has a very large and bright finder, a builtin meter and aperture priority mode. However, the shutter is louder, it has more vibration and is dependent on batteries. No batteries == dead camera. My Leicas on the other hand also have an excellent finder. My M3 is the king for 50mm, and my M4-p is excellent for 28-35mm. The shutter is dead quiet, and has little vibration meaning I can shoot handheld at much lower shutter speeds. They are both fully manual cameras, and don't depend on batteries. You can get decent M's for $600 if you search hard enough.

[Rol_Lei Nut]

Just as an example, here's one of them at an amazing $490 new.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350304388520&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Its an ebay store with a few thousand feedback at near 100%
But like you said, if it seems like too good to be true then it probably is. But I'm not seeing any usual alarm bells other than the seemingly cheap price??
.... But the one in the link above is actually the SW (super wide) model of the ZI.

It's so cheap because it's missing a rangefinder (not really necessary with very wide angle lenses)...
Plus you need to add 19% VAT if you live in the EU (that shop loves fine print).
The shop that's selling it *isn't* known for its good prices, BTW. You can definitely find better sources.

$750 is getting close to what a good used Leica M6 is going for these days (I can provide link to a *serious* shop in Germany which has some, if you want). While the ZI is undoubtedly a good camera, the M6 certainly has more "lasting value".

IMHO the 35mm focal length is an excellent choice.
The classic choice was the Leica Summicron type 4 (pre-Asph), for it's
all-round performance and bokeh.
The Zeiss ZMs are undoubtedly excellent (I'd choose whichever I could get for the best price).
No experience with the Cosina/Voigtländers in the 35mm FL...

[swifty]

Thanks everyone. I don't know how i could have missed that glaringly obvious omission.
Rol_lei_nut: M6 for $750 really? I was always under the impression that they were at least in the thousands but I'm in Australia so at least I won't have to pay VAT but shipping can be an issue. Can you let me know some good sources? I know KEH is often mentioned.

[Rol_Lei Nut]

Low price M6s at my two favorite leica sources:

http://www.photohaus.de/index.php?id=55&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[cat]=50&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[page_nr]=1&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[produkt]=2298&cHash=475a671a4b
http://www.photohaus.de/index.php?id=55&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[cat]=50&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[page_nr]=0&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[produkt]=2427&cHash=ae477e67ba
http://www.photohaus.de/index.php?id=55&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[cat]=50&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[page_nr]=0&tx_trproduktgalerie_pi1[produkt]=2381&cHash=5c40553c5f
http://www.meister-camera.com/berlin/index.php?id=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[backPID]=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[product]=4938
http://www.meister-camera.com/berlin/index.php?id=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[backPID]=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[product]=4507
http://www.meister-camera.com/berlin/index.php?id=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[backPID]=85&tx_ttproducts_pi1[begin_at]=20&tx_ttproducts_pi1[product]=4904
http://www.meister-camera.com/hamburg/index.php?id=25&tx_commerce_pi1[showUid]=8575&tx_commerce_pi1[catUid]=21&cHash=e79b67f277
http://www.meister-camera.com/hamburg/index.php?id=25&tx_commerce_pi1[showUid]=6538&tx_commerce_pi1[catUid]=21&cHash=353ce575a3

I've used both shops often and find them very reliable.
Meister's ratings are a bit more conservative than Photohaus' (Meister's C-D is probably like Photohaus' C). Meister also has pages in English, though I'm pretty sure Photohaus can also communicate.

Enjoy!

You might have to re-construct the links....

[Sanjay Sen]

Just as an example, here's one of them at an amazing $490 new.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350304388520&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Its an ebay store with a few thousand feedback at near 100%
But like you said, if it seems like too good to be true then it probably is. But I'm not seeing any usual alarm bells other than the seemingly cheap price??
Actually I referred to it as Zeiss Ikon ZI cos I read an article that referred to it as such to distinguish it from all the other Ikons. But the one in the link above is actually the SW (super wide) model of the ZI.

I've never bought from this seller and I didn't see anything on the auction page to trigger any alarm bells either. They have addresses and phone numbers on the auction page, along with a 7 day return option (sans shipping). Even with shipping, I would say that is a great price for the SW body. Just for comparison, the same item is listed at USD 1,005 on the B&H website (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/472554-REG/Zeiss_1405_680_Ikon_SW_Super_Wide.html). So I am now curious why their price is so good...

[elekm]

If that's the SW model, then you don't want that. That's best for superwide angle lenses.

For branding purposes, Carl Zeiss has been labeling lenses according to their mount:

ZM = Zeiss lenses for the Leica M mount.
ZF = Zeiss lenses for the Nikon F mount.
ZE = Zeiss lenses for the Canon EOS mount.
ZK = Zeiss lenses for the Pentax K mount.
ZS = Zeiss lenses for the M42 screw mount.
ZV = Zeiss lenses for the Hasseblad V mount.

Some people have referred to the camera body as the Zeiss Ikon ZM, which is also incorrect.

In the long run, it doesn't matter. It might help to eliminate some confusion when you call a store and call it by the wrong name. Otherwise, no harm.

[dfoo]

Check rangefinderforum.com classifieds for lots of M's for sale.

[benjiboy]

In my experience when things look too good to be true, they usually are.

[Vincenzo Maielli]

In my opinion, if you can't afford a Leica M7, the Zeiss Ikon ZI is the better choice on the market.
Ciao.
Vincenzo

[swifty]

Thanks everyone for your responses.
Yea.. I've now realised the link example and the ebay items I was looking at were all SW models without rangefinders and hence not what I was looking for.
Now I know somewhat better what my budget needs to be and I may need to get an Nikon FM2n or F100 (since I own a few G Nikkors) for the time being until I have enough for an M6/7 or the proper Zeiss Ikon rangefinder.

[cbphoto]

I don't understand the ZI thing - they are absurdly expensive and are not Leicas. Great finders, though.

For 500-750, you should be able to find a decent M2 (my favorite M body ever), or an M4-2. The latter is like an M6, but with a less cluttered finder.

[cbphoto]

KEH has M2's for 546 and 569 right now.