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chriscrawfordphoto
12-14-2010, 07:35 AM
Thanks guys. I didn't realize that all the forum members were pros who only shoot for cash. None of the contributors (writers and artists) have asked for money as of yet, even the well known ones. If you'd like to be a part of it, do so. Otherwise, stick to all the other paid book cover deals you have lined up.

I support myself and my son entirely from sales of my work, much of it to businesses who license the work to illustrate advertisements, books, magazines, etc. I get paid every time, no exceptions. The stone cold fact is, I cannot tell my son that I got paid 'photo credit' because he needs to eat. Three times a day, every day, no exceptions, ever. Same with me.

As another person said, your reply to us was snarky. Many of us here are fulltime professional artists and many others are commercial photographers. Those of us who are have plenty of paid work and paid usages of our photos.

I encourage anyone who is asked for photos for something like this to demand fair payment. Even if you have a 'real job' that isn't connected to photography, you could certainly use the money to buy more gear or to do something nice for your family. The last book cover I did brought me enough money to pay my rent, utility bills, food, gas, and other expenses for a month. For one photo, a month's income. Think about that before you give someone like the OP, who does not respect your work enough to pay for it, a free picture.

Domenico Foschi
12-15-2010, 03:20 PM
I believe it is good practice to do "pro bono" work once in a while. I have been given more than one break in my career.
I make a point to donate a certain amount of prints for non profit organizations fund raisers, and give a percentage to charities from some print sales every year, even though things are tough. I see it a a defying action against bad situations and it helps people. Is it scary? Oh yes, especially lately, but it is good practice to let go of that fear.

Domenico Foschi
12-15-2010, 03:25 PM
The ultimate put down is if you offer you're work for free, and they reject it.

Actually, my image wasn't approved by the panel, and it wasn't a big let down.
I saw it more as a missed opportunity to help two friends.

chriscrawfordphoto
12-15-2010, 04:25 PM
I believe it is good practice to do "pro bono" work once in a while. I have been given more than one break in my career.
I make a point to donate a certain amount of prints for non profit organizations fund raisers, and give a percentage to charities from some print sales every year, even though things are tough. I see it a a defying action against bad situations and it helps people. Is it scary? Oh yes, especially lately, but it is good practice to let go of that fear.

Giving pics to a charity you support is a hell of a lot different than giving something to a business. These people asking for pics are a business. If they cannot afford to pay their bills (and yes paying writes and photographers is a normal part of doing business as a publisher), then they need to evaluate whether they have the ability to keep the business going. Businesses are, not, and I repeat, NOT charities. They need to do what all of us did when we started our businesses: Save money, get business loans, find investors to back you, etc. Asking working people to work for free so they can have a business is arrogant and repugnant. No one has a right to be in business; an undercapitalized business fails in a free market economy, as well it should.

Domenico Foschi
12-15-2010, 04:38 PM
Did you read the word "pro bono" somewhere" in my post?
That is normal practice too. I am the first to say that I am not a good business man, but I do believe that my talent is not exclusively for sale. If I can help, even in hard times, a business that I think is important and is in bad water. Why not?

Colin Corneau
12-15-2010, 05:12 PM
Domenico, what you are talking about is supporting a charity through your work...this is admirable and just. I do it myself regularly.

A business, however, is not a charity. That is all that Chris is suggesting, and I think it's fair.

jnanian
12-15-2010, 05:15 PM
i'm with you domenico ...

i wish i had something suitable to submit.
the folks that put out the igNobel awards every year
used to get a bunch of us to work with them
for a bi-line and copies of the publication ..
i don't see anything wrong with helping out friends ...

MattKing
12-15-2010, 07:44 PM
Giving pics to a charity you support is a hell of a lot different than giving something to a business. These people asking for pics are a business. If they cannot afford to pay their bills (and yes paying writes and photographers is a normal part of doing business as a publisher), then they need to evaluate whether they have the ability to keep the business going. Businesses are, not, and I repeat, NOT charities. They need to do what all of us did when we started our businesses: Save money, get business loans, find investors to back you, etc. Asking working people to work for free so they can have a business is arrogant and repugnant. No one has a right to be in business; an undercapitalized business fails in a free market economy, as well it should.

I don't totally disagree with Chris, but I also think that there are lots of entities out there that benefit the community without being charities.

Publishing is done for profit, and it is done for the love of the material being published, and it is done for a mixture of the two. From my point of view, if a publication clearly is at least part a "labour of love" then I would be willing to consider making contributions to it without hope of financial rewards. I would expect, however, that:

1) it would be clear that there were others, including the principals of the operation, who were making similar contributions; and
2) the decision to make such a contribution is one to be made by me, voluntarily and in advance - people who don't pay bills they have previously agreed to pay do not attract any sympathy from me.

wildbill
12-16-2010, 08:05 AM
I'm not sure how photographers are so different from writers but not one writer out of the hundreds who have submitted for their previous publications has been paid, asked for compensation, or complained in any way. If/ when in the future the press makes a profit and can pay the cover artist, I don't think I'll mention it here.

Do those of you who do not pay to subscibe to this forum feel that Sean (apug owner/operator) doesn't need to be comensated for his time/efforts? He can work for free but you wouldn't dream of it?

In case you missed it:


My wife, Stacy, is doing the design work for a small publishing company that is currently seeking images. I figure there's got to be someone here interested in getting their work on the cover.


Call for submissions:

Fast Forward Press is currently seeking photographs for the cover of our upcoming flash novel "Emily Avenue." We are accepting color and b&w photographs containing a neon café sign of some sort (sign does not have to say café on it), preferably at night. The submission should be a low-quality file (72dpi, maximum width of 650 pixels), but if selected original work must be available at 300dpi in at least a 5"x7" size. Also, please note that the photograph may be cropped to fit cover dimensions.

Payment will be photo credit given inside the book, along with 2 contributor copies. Please see our website (http://fastforwardpress.org/) for our current volumes and information about our press.

Send submissions to: ffpressblog@gmail.com
Deadline: September 20th, 2010

Moopheus
12-16-2010, 09:18 AM
I'm not sure how photographers are so different from writers but not one writer out of the hundreds who have submitted for their previous publications has been paid, asked for compensation, or complained in any way.

Somehow this doesn't surprise me. When I was editing a little literary magazine, I'd get 20-30 manuscripts a day in my mail box. There was very little money or fame in it for anyone (in fact, it cost me a lot to keep it going, which is why I don't do it any more) but there are a lot of people out there who want to be published, no matter what. I'm quite familiar with the economics and social dynamics of small-press publishing. But I still think that publication just for credit is one step from vanity publishing.

CGW
12-16-2010, 09:23 AM
I'm not sure how photographers are so different from writers but not one writer out of the hundreds who have submitted for their previous publications has been paid, asked for compensation, or complained in any way. If/ when in the future the press makes a profit and can pay the cover artist, I don't think I'll mention it here.

Do those of you who do not pay to subscibe to this forum feel that Sean (apug owner/operator) doesn't need to be comensated for his time/efforts? He can work for free but you wouldn't dream of it?

In case you missed it:

This is so cute, a fit of pique when you're rejected--how very professional. We're not discussing APUG, pal, just your sustained incomprehension of why people aren't too keen on working for free for a sketchy operation trolling for sucker writers and photographers. Good luck with your business. I doubt anyone here will be hurt if you don't show up again. It's an opportunity we can live without.

TheFlyingCamera
12-16-2010, 10:19 AM
Everyone- cool down. I agree that the notion of being asked to work for free, especially for a commercial enterprise, is somewhat galling. That said, there's no call for telling a positive contributor to the site that if he goes away he won't be missed.

Dinesh
12-16-2010, 10:20 AM
This is so cute, a fit of pique when you're rejected--how very professional. We're not discussing APUG, pal, just your sustained incomprehension of why people aren't too keen on working for free for a sketchy operation trolling for sucker writers and photographers. Good luck with your business. I doubt anyone here will be hurt if you don't show up again. It's an opportunity we can live without.

In many ways APUG is an electonic publication and as such, there are costs involved. , If you (and others) are so bent out of shape about compensation, why don't you get off your wallet and help Sean out by subscribing.

You talk the talk, now let's see if you can walk the walk!

CGW
12-16-2010, 11:29 AM
In many ways APUG is an electonic publication and as such, there are costs involved. , If you (and others) are so bent out of shape about compensation, why don't you get off your wallet and help Sean out by subscribing.

You talk the talk, now let's see if you can walk the walk!

That's wide of the point which is: Who needs shills, come-ons and near-spam? Perhaps the original post should have been deleted or the thread closed?

Dinesh
12-16-2010, 11:43 AM
That's wide of the point which is: Who needs shills, come-ons and near-spam? Perhaps the original post should have been deleted or the thread closed?

Put the thread on ignore if it bothers you or else leave the site. I am sure that Sean can do without your financial contribution (or lack thereof) to his site.

If you wish to discuss this further, send me a PM.

JBrunner
12-16-2010, 12:08 PM
Wildbill is a subscriber and longtime contributor to the site. He has proposed an arrangement for those who might wish to submit images for a certain project. If you aren't interested in the terms, you pass it by. If you are interested, submit. It's pretty simple, and doesn't need berating. Some folks pay to enter images in contests etc. and some folks get paid on a regular basis for their images. This falls square in between. I personally don't have any images that I wish to trade for the terms, so I'm taking a pass. It's just business, and I rather doubt it is intended as some sort of insult, so don't take it that way.

rpsawin
12-16-2010, 01:43 PM
Wildbill is a subscriber and longtime contributor to the site. He has proposed an arrangement for those who might wish to submit images for a certain project. If you aren't interested in the terms, you pass it by. If you are interested, submit. It's pretty simple, and doesn't need berating. Some folks pay to enter images in contests etc. and some folks get paid on a regular basis for their images. This falls square in between. I personally don't have any images that I wish to trade for the terms, so I'm taking a pass. It's just business, and I rather doubt it is intended as some sort of insult, so don't take it that way.

Why muddy this conversation with common sense? It was going so well...:whistling:

Best regards,

Bob

johnnywalker
12-17-2010, 12:02 AM
Why muddy this conversation with common sense? It was going so well...:whistling:

Best regards,

Bob

:D

ozphoto
12-17-2010, 12:50 AM
I seem to recall Ilford asking for submissions for images to be used on their new paper boxes, but don't recall compensation being discussed in the form of $$ value.

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum242/57740-2009-ilford-photo-competition.html

This was greeted with high enthusiasm and nigh said about the lack of payment forthcoming should you win - and Ilford (like the said publisher) will be making money from the winning images.

I guess the difference is in the product maybe? The prices for each item are totally different:
-
Ilford 8x10 Pk 100 GBP29.00 from Silverprint
Fast Forward #2 Amazon $12.00


It's your choice to submit or not - berating somebody for their opinion is uncalled for and not in the spirit of APUG.

As a professional photographer it is disappointing to hear requests like this; I make a living from the images I produce, and "free" imagery requests continue to break down the industry.

As a result, the fees both individuals and companies are willing to pay continues to diminish (and often the quality does as well), but for many, the price is *the* most important factor - quality comes a very poor second.

Perhaps the publisher could revise their position and offer to pay the successful candidate based upon RF per one of the big stock sites?

Getty's offer:

28.5 MB
3870 x 2575 px (12.90 x 8.58 in.) - 300 dpi - RGB
File size on download 3.93 MB

THB 15,000.00 (or USD$500.00)

Food for thought perhaps? ;)

TheFlyingCamera
12-17-2010, 05:43 AM
Oz- I think the difference is in the value of the exposure you get from Ilford packaging vs. the book. With the Ilford packaging, the image will receive global distribution, be seen by millions of people, and have an extended life in people's darkrooms. Because it is on the Ilford packaging, it provides a sense (perhaps false) of some kind of "official" recognition of ones' success as a photographer. The book, however, will not have anywhere near the same exposure, nor will it convey the same cachet of being a "master" of black-and-white photography.