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Mustafa Umut Sarac
01-01-2011, 12:10 AM
The process of claim 6 in which said yellow color developing composition contains a diffusible acylacetanilide yellow-dye-forming coupler and a color developing agent selected from the class consisting of N-ethyl-N-methoxyethyl-3-methyl-p-phenylenediamine, N-ethyl-N-methoxybutyl-3-methyl-p-phenylenediamine, N-ethyl-N-ethoxyethyl-3-methyl-p-phenylenediamine, N-ethyl-N-methoxyethyl-3-propyl-p-phenylenediamine, N-ethyl-N-methoxyethyl-3-methoxy-p-phenylenediamine and N-ethyl-N-butoxyethyl-3-methyl-p-phenylenediamine.

Mustafa Umut Sarac
01-01-2011, 12:42 AM
Ron , I think below list is ok , I could not find cyan chemicl name . Do you accept the list ?

cyan coupler is selected from the class consisting of a phenol and a naphthol; said magenta coupler is a 5-pyrazolone coupler and said yellow coupler is an acylacetacetamide.

yellow :1-Hydroxy-N-(2-acetamidophenethyl)- 2-naphthamide
link :http://www.coleparmer.com/1/1/38773-n-2-acetamidophenethyl-1-hydroxy-2-naphthamide-10g.html

magenta :1-(2,4,6-Trichlorophenyl)-3-(p-nitroanilino)-2-pyrazoline-5-one
link :http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=8835888

cyan :acylamino phenols
link :http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=02423730&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fn ph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DP ALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25 252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%252 6s1%3D2,423,730.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F2,423,730%2526RS %3DPN%2F2,423,730&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

patent :2423730

google patents :http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=7vJUAAAAEBAJ&dq=2423730

d235j
01-01-2011, 01:11 AM
It appears that the dye couplers used in Kodachrome K-14 color developers are listed in the Material Safety Data Sheets for the K-Lab chemicals. These can be viewed here:
http://www.siri.org/msds/gn.cgi?query=k-lab
Unfortunately I can't copy and paste right now, or I'd copy the exact dye coupler names. They are quite obvious though.
Edit: maybe I was too quick; looking deeper doesn't make it seem so obvious at all. :(

Mustafa Umut Sarac
01-01-2011, 01:20 AM
d235j ,

Happy New Year and Welcome to APUG.

Thank you for the tip , They are not obvious for me so the others. So if you know or if you can do something please contribute.

I will read the notes , I hope I would be sure about my research.

Thank you and Very good start to Forum.

Umut

Mustafa Umut Sarac
01-01-2011, 02:01 AM
http://www.siri.org/msds/gn.cgi?query=K+14M&whole=partial&start=0

K 14M latest kodachrome developer msds

Athiril
01-01-2011, 04:32 AM
Athiril ,

Try to find using movie films at the camera , threads. There is all formulas available to dissolve the ramjet

I have 4000 ft of movie film. I use it. I dont need a formula, any simple alkaline solution makes it dissolve. For stills in a hand tank, alkaline solution + agitation removes almost all of it, traces are left that can be wipe off after the developer stage. I've even run it through developer without removing remjet first, doesn't stick to the film like people say, it's suspended in developer. If you dont intend to keep/reuse the developer, I haven't found a problem with that.. as long as it's not activated carbon I guess.. which may cause potential issues.. though I doubt it over a short developing time.


Actually Michael, you are not totally wrong. This film will be expensive and labor intensive to make, but covering the development costs will add to the sale price. Then, tack on processing! No, you won't get this for a low low price. A B&W film made by these methods could run as high as $5 per 4x5 sheet.

That is one of the problems of sustaining any analog product. It takes a huge physical plant and a huge staff of trained people even if you are making small runs.

The future may be in hand made products, as I have said before.

PE

That's how much it cost me for Pro 160S in 4x5..

Photo Engineer
01-01-2011, 11:03 AM
It is interesting to note that all of the MSDS sheets seem to omit the coupler and other major ingredients. It is also interesting that all of these sheets list CD4 as the Color Developer for the yellow layer, but they use CD6 for the yellow color developer. I'll have to look up the couplers I do have.

PE

Mustafa Umut Sarac
01-01-2011, 11:21 AM
Thank you PE ,

I banged my head to the same wall.

Thank you for coupler information promise.


Umut

michaelbsc
01-01-2011, 12:46 PM
OK, let me ask a few more questions? To recap first:


The red reexposure is done through the base from which the rem-jet was just removed.

The front side must be protected!

The red exposure nominally uses a WR70 red filter, and the intensity and time must be such that the other layers are not fogged.

The blue exposure is also a WR filter, and must be carefully controlled to prevent fogging the green layer.

PE

Refined steps below.

For step 04, do we know the light dose required? And do we know the intensity not to exceed? Is there a lower threshold as well? It seems illogical that one could expose for hours with a very feeble light and expect to get good results.

Or do these values have be determined experimentally?

For step 07, is WR47 the correct blue filter? That's the blue color separation filter.

Likewise, for step 07, do we know the light dose required? And do we know the intensity not to exceed? Is there a lower threshold as well?


Preliminary listing of mechanical steps.

01) Warm bath Akaline wash for rem-jet removal (Athiril understands how to do this. The process may need slight improvement to assure complete removal for the red reexposure to be complete. Speckles are not good.)

01a) Flush to clear clear

02) develop in E6 1st developer

03) wash

04) red reexpose through film base with WR70 filter for X lumen-seconds where lumen(dot) does not exceed Q. Do not allow exposure of emulsion side.

05) red/cyan develop (Mustafa has tracked down the coupler chemicals, but we don't know exact process yet.)

06) wash

07) blue reexpose emulsion side with WR?? filter for Y lumen-seconds where lumen(dot) does not exceed P.

08) blue/yellow develop (Again, Mustafa has tracked down the coupler chemicals, but we don't know exact process yet.)


09) wash

10) fog

11) green/magenta develop (And again, Mustafa has tracked down the chemicals, but we don't know exact process yet.)

12) wash

13-18)then finish with the rest of the E6 process (I'll straighten these steps out later).

Photo Engineer
01-01-2011, 12:56 PM
Michael;

The blue filter must be narrow. I believe it is a WR98. The time and intensity are critical and differ for each of the 3 Kodachrome films, 25, 64 and 200. The Daylight differs from the Tungsten as well. They must be individually determined but once done it will remain constant. I do not have information on this. GWTW. Sorry.

PE

michaelbsc
01-01-2011, 01:15 PM
The time and intensity are critical and differ for each of the 3 Kodachrome films, 25, 64 and 200.

As a starting point, is it reasonable to expect that the exposure value for the three speeds are related by their relative ASA speeds. Specifically, if the 200 requires 'X', then the 64 will likely require 1.3*X, and the 25 will require 8*X?

MB

Photo Engineer
01-01-2011, 01:25 PM
No, you cannot just assume it will work. It might be close though. The first development will change the emulsions ever so slightly. For example, the blue sensitizing dye will probably wash away thereby reducing blue speed. OTOH, the red sensitizing dye is designed to stay in place for the red reexposure. So this will cause some sort of change.

PE

michaelbsc
01-01-2011, 02:13 PM
No, you cannot just assume it will work. It might be close though. The first development will change the emulsions ever so slightly. For example, the blue sensitizing dye will probably wash away thereby reducing blue speed. OTOH, the red sensitizing dye is designed to stay in place for the red reexposure. So this will cause some sort of change.

PE

Then, likewise, the adjustment between Daylight and Tungsten balanced film reexposures will not be exactly predictable by the relative spectral components of Daylight vs Tungsten light although this may provide a reasonable starting framework for empirical discovery.

Do I understand this correctly?

And, in any case, once one has worked out the necessary exposures for each type they will not change?

d235j
01-01-2011, 02:45 PM
How does the K-Lab machine precisely re-expose the film? Kittlegraphy over at the Kodachrome Project forums has such a machine; perhaps the necessary data could be obtained from testing with it?

michaelbsc
01-01-2011, 03:05 PM
Ron , I think below list is ok , I could not find cyan chemicl name . Do you accept the list ?

cyan coupler is selected from the class consisting of a phenol and a naphthol; said magenta coupler is a 5-pyrazolone coupler and said yellow coupler is an acylacetacetamide.

yellow :1-Hydroxy-N-(2-acetamidophenethyl)- 2-naphthamide
link :http://www.coleparmer.com/1/1/38773-n-2-acetamidophenethyl-1-hydroxy-2-naphthamide-10g.html

magenta :1-(2,4,6-Trichlorophenyl)-3-(p-nitroanilino)-2-pyrazoline-5-one
link :http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=8835888

cyan :acylamino phenols
link :http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=02423730&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fn ph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DP ALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25 252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%252 6s1%3D2,423,730.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F2,423,730%2526RS %3DPN%2F2,423,730&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

patent :2423730

google patents :http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=7vJUAAAAEBAJ&dq=2423730

Umut,

It may be helpful to the Kodachrome community to share these links with Kittleagraphy on http://www.kodachromeproject.com/forum/showthread.php?t=674&page=4

He seems to have the only remaining K-Lab in the world, and the chemistry is the missing component.

bwfans
01-01-2011, 03:29 PM
Without using the three color couplers, and run the complete K-14 process, is it possible getting a good quality Black and White slides?

Mustafa Umut Sarac
01-01-2011, 03:47 PM
Micheal ,

I did not check their correctness , PE published the couplers and developers at other thread today.
Did you check them ? If you want to give link to another forum , use Photo Engineer posts.
Finding the correct chemical is easy if you have money.

Umut

Photo Engineer
01-01-2011, 04:35 PM
Michael;

You understand the re-exposure correctly!

bwfans;

If you run the Kodachrome process without couplers, you get clear blank film!

PE

michaelbsc
01-01-2011, 08:43 PM
Michael;

You understand the re-exposure correctly!


OK, please bear with me a little. Let's move away from reexposure for a moment and look at the color development steps. I'll come back to the reexposure later.

Remember this thread from two years ago? (Do not think I've taken my eye off the ball on this. Resources, not dedication, are the issue. I have to earn a living to eat, and I'm a big guy so eating is important.)

========
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum205/54858-kodachrome-emulsion-formula.html

There we spoke about using three pieces of panchromatic film with tri-color filters.
========

Now, back to my list of steps for home processing the thousands of Found Kodachrome rolls which will appear over the next years:

05) red/cyan develop (Mustafa has tracked down the coupler chemicals, but we don't know exact process yet.)

08) blue/yellow develop (Again, Mustafa has tracked down the coupler chemicals, but we don't know exact process yet.)

11) green/magenta develop (And again, Mustafa has tracked down the chemicals, but we don't know exact process yet.)


>>>>>Here's the questions!<<<<<
Is it reasonable to believe that we can "practice" on steps 05, 08, and 11 with the couplers to gain an understanding of how those steps will work using ordinary panchromatic sheets of a tri-color separation? Specifically, will learning to get the couplers to form the appropriate dyes in an inexpensive piece of Arista EDU also tell us how to work that step so that it correctly forms the dyes in K64? Or at least gives us a fair starting point even if it's not exactly correct?

Specifically, for each research trial, we'll make three exposures through separation filters, process the three in E6 first developer, then separate them so that we can learn the chemistry requirements for the three color development steps without cluttering up the experiments with the necessity of being extremely careful with the red and blue reexposure. Finally we'll put them back together for the rest of the E6 process.

I suspect that using this scheme we can simply fog each without regard to light cross contamination since the blue/yellow sheet and the green/magenta sheet will not be in the chemicals with the red/cyan sheet during the red/cyan develop cycle. Likewise for the other two, the absence of the other sheets during the specific color development step makes the reexposure of the sheet of interest merely a matter of fogging rather than controlling it tightly. Do I understand this?

Photo Engineer
01-01-2011, 08:51 PM
Michael;

In practice at EK, we do work with what amounts to B&W single layer coatings. The problem is that a multilayer version acts differently due to diffusion. That bugaboo changes everything. The end result though is that whatever you do with whatever process and coating, your final result will be OK if you can produce a neutral step wedge from a 3 color exposure.

PE