View Full Version : The sprocket hole thing on Ilford Delta 400/ID-11 combination

05-23-2011, 12:01 PM
I have used this mix successfully for over a month with no problem. Recently I got faint sprocket streaks on a roll, the second was very noticable, and the third ruined the film entirely. My method is consistent, I mix and toss 1:1 fresh stock each time, store the stock in a plastic fridge dispenser. I push 2 stops on all the rolls I have successfully developed to date...which I believe is 15 min in 1:1 at around 70. But the time/concentration/freshness/temp is invariant with the 15 or so rolls that I have developed before with no problem.

I thought agitation might be the issue. My agitation routine was vigorous 10 sec each first of 4 min, then not so vigorous every other min or so. Somewhat casual, but never a problem before. After the streaks started showing up I became religious in agitating exactly 10 sec each minute, gently, and that didn't make the difference.

I tested the camera yesterday and the 200 ISO Kodak came from the lab perfectly, so it isn't a transport or lens registration problem.

Please share your thoughts about setting up tests to eliminate possible problems. I use a thermometer on all chemicals before use, telltale stop and check the fix after each use, so again freshness and temperature are not issues.


Roger Cole
05-23-2011, 01:15 PM
If 200 ISO Kodak from the lab means you ran a roll of 200 color neg film through the camera that's a useless "test." Color neg has tremendous latitude especially for overexposure. You can overexposed the stuff four stops and still get great prints.

I've no suggestions about the streaking though. That does normally indicate over agitation but I've no idea why some would be fine then start showing problems with the same materials and methods.

05-24-2011, 11:00 AM
I'd scan the various films on which there are the problems you describe. What you mean by sprocket streaks and what we think you mean may be two different things. A picture should clear up any misunderstandings.

As you have described your process I like Roger am at a loss to point to any fault but of course there has to be one or more to ruin the film.

Apart from streaks which I assume( there you go, an assumption on my part which may be wrong) to be black streaks stretching for the sprocket holes to areas within the negs, how do the negs look?

Without a scan to see we are "punching the air"


Ian Grant
05-24-2011, 11:19 AM
The word vigorous is probably the key to the problem, sounds like surge marks. Agitation needs to be consistent and relatively gentle. My guess is after the first problem you've increased the agitation instead of backing off.


05-24-2011, 04:25 PM
Interestingly, Ian, the OP says he used gentle agitation for 10 secs after he first experienced problems but they then got worse???

Of course his" gentle" and yours and my "gentle" can be two different things.

To the OP I'd say that normal agitation and what I used for Ilford's Delta films and ID11 was about 4 inversions in 10 secs. How does this compare with your agitation pattern?

If Ian will be Holmes I'll be Watson so all we need is for the victim of the dastardly misfortune to continue to visit Baker Street and tell us more:D


05-24-2011, 05:21 PM
I'm with Ian in the opinion that the problem is likely surge marks from over or too vigorous agitation.
My agitation pattern is similar to pentaxuser's, 4 or 5 inversions in 10 seconds.

I'd add, make sure the tank is full to the top, and if it's a two-reel tank with only one roll of film, fill the extra space with a second reel.

Ronald Moravec
01-24-2013, 06:48 AM
You don`t get marks from too much agitatioin. They are from too little and certain areas do not get equal replenishment. Notice they are too light, not too dark.

That said, ID11 or D76 makes a really grainy neg. I was very disappointed with the latest version some 10 years old now. It worked well before. The two best developers are DDX and Xtol and they are way better than ID11 for D400. ID11 works fine with Delta 100 speed. Delta 400 in DDX is a beautiful combination.

The ultimate test is for agitation is a two reel tank with film on the bottom reel only and empty spacer reel on top. Use only one reel worth of developer, probably 8 oz. Agitate by inversion. This is the same as sheet film in holders where film is removed and replaced in developer twice per minute.

No agitation is more vigorous than this, but the key is it is random and complete. Your film will never mark.

You also do not want to pour film developer down the cap as it washes in one direction over the sprocket holes creating marks on the outer wraps. The initial immersion is most important as the wet edge needs to start and progress across the film rapidly without stopping or retreating. Dropping the reels into the developer accomplishes this. So does the Patterson Super System 4 tank which overcomes all the user controlled agitation problems.

Ricardo Miranda
01-24-2013, 11:05 AM
Re-fix your film and those sprocket ghosts should go away. It seems not enough time during fixing. See if this helps: http://www.flickr.com/groups/ishootfilm/discuss/72157631903867094/?search=sprocket+leak

01-24-2013, 11:11 AM
Interestingly zeitguy hasn't responded since his initial post way back in May of last year. He has either solved his problem and/or didn't like our answers :D

Seriously I am always surprised when what appears to be a serious and worrying issue which it seemed to be produces no further response???


Ricardo Miranda
01-24-2013, 11:13 AM
Dooh! Didn't look at the thread age! :blink:

04-26-2015, 09:27 PM
How about presoaking with water before pouring in developper? I remember back some decades having the same issues but didnt really solve then. Did this several times with CN-films 120/70mm in jobo CPP2-rotatary-machine with lift. Not allowed for slides.
I loved promicrol very much.

04-27-2015, 12:59 AM
Unless you fix delta, tmax, and Foma200 by inspection you are going to need to refix...

04-27-2015, 06:37 PM
How about presoaking with water before pouring in developper? I remember back some decades having the same issues but didnt really solve then. Did this several times with CN-films 120/70mm in jobo CPP2-rotatary-machine with lift. Not allowed for slides.
I loved promicrol very much.

presoaking never did much for me other than getting spool,film and tank up to temp and starting to eliminate the anti halation layer,reducing the residual pink stain in some films. I consider the presoak to be an unnecessary time waster.:)