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Henning Serger
05-26-2011, 12:54 PM
Regardless of what the article says, I think it's great that a such a high profile site as the Telegraph has given film a wider publicity.

Exactly, Steve.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger
05-26-2011, 01:00 PM
As we formerly said here: The snapshooters keep our hobby alive.
Nowadays these are the "lomos"!

Hello Folker,

yes, these are the lomographers, too. But luckily not exclusively. For example sales of single use cameras are still quite robust as well (due to Kodak and Fuji).
By the way, Fuji see rising interest for their Instax cameras and films. There was a statement about that some weeks ago on photoscala.de.

Best regards from your former home town,
Henning

Henning Serger
05-26-2011, 01:04 PM
Incidentally, selling 500,000 new cameras & 4 million rolls of film during the biggest recession since the 1930s is some achievement. I wonder if that is up or down from sales in the early 2000s.

Steve, that is significantly up compared to the early 2000s.
At that time LSI was a much smaller company than today.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger
05-26-2011, 01:21 PM
On a good year I shoot around 100 rolls of film. I think this is a lot for an amateur, most probably shoot much less, maybe less than 50. If all the 'Lomographers' shoot 50 rolls then the 4 million sales equals 64,000 photographers or 128,000 if they shoot 25 rolls per year.

Steve, the number of Lomographers is much, much higher.
An increasing number of them buy their film at other places, not at the Lomo stores.
You have to add this to the 4 million number (that is only the film sold directly from the LSI last year).
And other distributors like Freestyle are selling several ten thousand Holgas every year, and lots of film to theses photographers as well.

On www.lomography.com much more than 100,000 lomographers are registrated.

At the end of 2010 Lomo had 200,000 fans on facebook.
Now, less than a half year later, they have more than 295,000 fans on facebook.
50% more in 5 months. A good indication of their dynamic growth.
Last year they have opened 12 new stores worldwide, if I remember right.

No matter of liking them or not, their success is fact.

Best regards,
Henning

CGW
05-26-2011, 01:26 PM
Steve, the number of Lomographers is much, much higher.
An increasing number of them buy their film at other places, not at the Lomo stores.
You have to add this to the 4 million number (that is only the film sold directly from the LSI last year).
And other distributors like Freestyle are selling several ten thousand Holgas every year, and lots of film to theses photographers as well.

On www.lomography.com much more than 100,000 lomographers are registrated.

At the end of 2010 Lomo had 200,000 fans on facebook.
Now, less than a half year later, they have more than 295,000 fans on facebook.
50% more in 5 months. A good indication of their dynamic growth.
Last year they have opened 12 new stores worldwide, if I remember right.

No matter of liking them or not, their success is fact.

Best regards,
Henning

Why are labs closing? I'd put very little store in facebook stats.

Henning Serger
05-26-2011, 01:30 PM
CGW, sorry to say, but you know nothing about the photo market.


iPhones are "good enough" for most of them and will only get better. This has killed the market for low/mid price p&s digicams.

The market for p&s digicams was not killed at all. It is still growing, especially due to demand from the NICs.
In 2010 more than 100 million digital p&s were sold. Source: CIPA (organisation of the Japanese camera manufacturers).



Hoping I'm wrong .....

You are ;).

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger
05-26-2011, 01:40 PM
Why are labs closing? I'd put very little store in facebook stats.

Recession?
Labs: In Germany the number of labs is quite stable during the last two years. There are even new services.
Maybe the situation is different in Canada.

As I said, the facebook numbers are one indication.
Here is another:
http://www.lomography.com/about/jobs

Only fast growing companies are offering so much new jobs.

Best regards,
Henning

CGW
05-26-2011, 01:56 PM
Recession?
Labs: In Germany the number of labs is quite stable during the last two years. There are even new services.
Maybe the situation is different in Canada.

As I said, the facebook numbers are one indication.
Here is another:
http://www.lomography.com/about/jobs

Only fast growing companies are offering so much new jobs.

Best regards,
Henning

Tell me there are more labs today in your market than 5-8 years ago.

N. American labs have been in steady decline for a decade. Just ask around.

The number of Lomography jobs is insignificant.

CGW
05-26-2011, 01:58 PM
the market for p&s digicams was not killed at all. It is still growing, especially due to demand from the NICs.
In 2010 more than 100 million digital p&s were sold. Source: CIPA (organisation of the Japanese camera manufacturers).


Since I know nothing, which sells better: smart phones/camera-equipped phones or p&s digicams?

perkeleellinen
05-26-2011, 02:27 PM
Since I know nothing, which sells better: smart phones/camera-equipped phones or p&s digicams?

This is like claiming ipods are in terminal decline because cars with stereos sell better.

Henning Serger
05-26-2011, 02:43 PM
Tell me there are more labs today in your market than 5-8 years ago.

Please read my post. I have not said that. I have said we see a stabilisation here during the last two years. No further closings, some new services.



N. American labs have been in steady decline for a decade. Just ask around.

I know that. We had the peak in film sales in 2001 with more than 3 billion films sold worldwide.
Now we have about 10% of that.
Of course that development caused closings of labs during the last decade. No need to argue.

But that is not the question. The question is wether we now see the beginning of the end of this trend. Wether we will see in the next two or three years or can already see in some areas a stabilisation or a little increase.
That is the subject of the Telegraph article.



The number of Lomography jobs is insignificant.

So, you doubt that overall growth rates of 50% p.a. for a company are not an indicator for economic success.
You doubt that an rapidly growing online community is not an indicator for success.
That doubling film sales in one year is not an indicator for success.
That when a company with almost 300 employees is offering 79 new jobs, that that is insignificant and not an indicator fur success.

I think most business people are probably very satisfied if they would have 10% of that ;)

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger
05-26-2011, 02:52 PM
Since I know nothing, which sells better: smart phones/camera-equipped phones or p&s digicams?

Of course the mobil phones are sold in higher numbers. Because their main use is telephone calls and SMS.

You said that digital p&s were killed by mobil phones. But fact is p&s still have increasing sales numbers on a world wide basis (in some markets the sales numbers are decreasing, but mainly because of market saturation; everyone who wants such a p&s now has one).
And with more than 100 million units sold saying they are killed is a bit exaggerated, don't you think?

Best regards,
Henning

CGW
05-26-2011, 03:29 PM
Please read my post. I have not said that. I have said we see a stabilisation here during the last two years. No further closings, some new services.



I know that. We had the peak in film sales in 2001 with more than 3 billion films sold worldwide.
Now we have about 10% of that.
Of course that development caused closings of labs during the last decade. No need to argue.

But that is not the question. The question is wether we now see the beginning of the end of this trend. Wether we will see in the next two or three years or can already see in some areas a stabilisation or a little increase.
That is the subject of the Telegraph article.



So, you doubt that overall growth rates of 50% p.a. for a company are not an indicator for economic success.
You doubt that an rapidly growing online community is not an indicator for success.
That doubling film sales in one year is not an indicator for success.
That when a company with almost 300 employees is offering 79 new jobs, that that is insignificant and not an indicator fur success.

I think most business people are probably very satisfied if they would have 10% of that ;)

Best regards,
Henning

It's nice you're enthusiastic about Lomography Inc but it's hardly an engine of growth for the world's economy. It's macro-economically insignificant, sorry.

Stability--and especially some faint stirring--after a decade of calamitous decline in film sales is rather cold comfort. Harman's stock isn't doing badly--there was even a small dividend--but I haven't seen their balance sheet. They're in a bit of a "last man standing" position.

Henning Serger
05-27-2011, 02:04 AM
It's nice you're enthusiastic about Lomography Inc .....

Again, please read my posts. Look at post no. 5 on page 1.
I am not "enthusiastic" about lomography. I am analysing it on a neutral basis.
I have clearly written that in post no 5, that the toy camera movement has both positive and negative effects on analogue photography.

It is an interesting question why LSI has this success. To analyse the reasons makes sense.That's all.



but it's hardly an engine of growth for the world's economy. It's macro-economically insignificant, sorry.

??? Of course it is not an engine for the world's economy. No one has said that!
But meanwhile they are so big that they have a relevance for the photo film market. With 500,000 cameras and several million films sold every year.
That is the topic.



Stability--and especially some faint stirring--after a decade of calamitous decline in film sales is rather cold comfort.

Maybe that's your feeling. But for film manufacturers stability is "heaven on earth"
after these hard last years.
And for us photographers as well.
Stability is the most important thing. With stability in film sales the future of photo film is secured and we can continue to use our medium.



Harman's stock isn't doing badly--there was even a small dividend--but I haven't seen their balance sheet. They're in a bit of a "last man standing" position.

Ilford, Kodak, Fuji, Adox, Foma, Fotokemika......they have all declared in the past they will be the last man standing......;). I don't care much for this talk.
I think all of them work hard to keep their lines running. And I wish them all success. And if we really see a stabilisation in the next years, first signs are there, then indeed all of them can stay in business.

I remenber well Photokina fair in 2002: Lots of "experts" said that in 2010 film will be dead and all production will be stopped. And now we even see new emulsions on the market (and new cameras for film).

Best regards,
Henning

Michael W
05-27-2011, 09:39 AM
Harman's stock isn't doing badly--there was even a small dividend--but I haven't seen their balance sheet.
What stock are you referring to? Harman is a privately held company.

perkeleellinen
05-27-2011, 09:57 AM
I actually thought this was a good news thread: a high profile news site gives film photography some airing and Lomography shifted 4 million rolls of film in one year during the worst recession since 1932.

Anyway, whenever the doom & gloom predictions materialise, I think to a comment made on photo.net back in 2003 and I keep in mind what predictions are: predictions:


I firmly believe that film will indeed disappear for all intents and purposes within this decade [...] Whether there will be any film available by 2010 or not isn't worth debating, the cost will be extraordinarily high. Contrary to the ludicrous contention of some that 3rd-world consumption will be the savior of film, it will in fact be only the affluent collector who will find film affordable.

semi-ambivalent
05-27-2011, 10:23 AM
Anyway, whenever the doom & gloom predictions materialise, I think to a comment made on photo.net back in 2003 and I keep in mind what predictions are: predictions:

"Making predictions is always difficult, especially about the future."

- Somebody smarter than I

sa

dr5chrome
06-09-2011, 01:26 AM
Henning -

CGW is mostly correct in this debate. While there has been great sales in 'toy' cameras, it is really just a fad, maybe a good fad for film.

And while you seem to be stuck in some sort of time-warp there in Germany, World-wide labs are still closing left and right. I don't believe you quite understand what is happening outside of your little world.

It is true that film sale have gone up in the past 12 months, per my connections with some camera shops in the US. This is likely because all the other stores are closed, but in the likelihood there has been a semi-substantial increase in film sales - the manufactures have not let on and we as a lab have not seen more film to process this year.

The problem arises for ALL labs - "CONSISTENT VOLUME". Without it a lab can not maintain quality or keep rates down. The result - they close.

While the rate of lab closure has slowed in the past few years, still over 300 closed in N.America last year.

Mick Fagan
06-09-2011, 05:26 AM
Docterfivechrome, I believe that Harmon (Ilford) have reported an 8% increase in film moved by them in the last year.

Mick.

CGW
06-09-2011, 06:17 AM
Docterfivechrome, I believe that Harmon (Ilford) have reported an 8% increase in film moved by them in the last year.

Mick.

8% above what? What's the $ value of that 8% against total film sales last year? That's the big picture background that's necessary to grasp what's going on. Viewed in isolation of that, the chirping about Harmon/Ilford's 8% increase doesn't necessarily mean much.