I hope this is an acceptable topic... What type of negatives do scanners respond to best for making enlarged negs on a desktop printer?

Are there films and developers that are better suited than others for this?

Happy Days
Mark

I don't think one film/developer combo is much better than another for scanning. Just make sure your negative is exposed properly- enough density in the shadows, and not too blocked up in the brighter parts of the scene.

Of course, you need to be fairly skilled at scanning- in which case, any well exposed and developed negative should be fine.

Thanks JeffD... I've been wondering if I needed to do anything differently before giving this a whirl.

Happy Days
Mark

I don't think one film/developer combo is much better than another for scanning. Just make sure your negative is exposed properly- enough density in the shadows, and not too blocked up in the brighter parts of the scene.

Of course, you need to be fairly skilled at scanning- in which case, any well exposed and developed negative should be fine.

I have done a great deal of scanning original in-camera negatives for making digital negatives for alternative printing over the past two years or so and I basically agree with Jeff's remarks. But I will add just a couple of comments that may be of some use.

First, even though scanning minimizes most of the advantages stained negatives have over traditional ones there are still, at least in my opinion, a couple of advantages for stained negatives: 1) The scanner sees stain density, which minimizes grain, and 2) if the original negative was made in a strongly back lit scenes there is a good possibility that the stained negative will have better separation in those areas of the scene where objects of fine detail (say tree limbs) are in contrast with a very bright source (say the sun).

If you are developing film *just* for scanning you probably should develop to a fairly low CI, say about what you would need for printing in silver. However, since I am interested primarily in alternative printing I develop all of my negatives, in Pyrocat-HD, to an effective DR of about 1.6 or 1.7, which equates to a CI of about .75 to .85. I have had no problem scanning these negatives with the Epson 4870. I have also been able to make good scans of some of my older negatives that were developed in PMK to a slightly lower DR, say about 1.5.

Sandy

Thanks for the responses.

The info on DR will help alot, It sounds like it may be easier to make a negative with scanning in mind...would that lower the amount of tonal manipulation needed in PS?

Happy Days
Mark

Thanks for the responses.

The info on DR will help alot, It sounds like it may be easier to make a negative with scanning in mind...would that lower the amount of tonal manipulation needed in PS?

Happy Days
Mark


Yes, it is probably true that it is easier to make a good negative with scanning in mind than if it is to be printed directly. But nevertheless a negative that is well exposed and developed will require less manipulation in Photoshop than one that is not. The key with negatives meant for scanning, as it is for negatives that are to be printed directly, is to expose for good shadow detail, and then develop for the right amount of time.

Sandy King

First, even though scanning minimizes most of the advantages stained negatives have over traditional ones there are still, at least in my opinion, a couple of advantages for stained negatives: 1) The scanner sees stain density, which minimizes grain, and 2) if the original negative was made in a strongly back lit scenes there is a good possibility that the stained negative will have better separation in those areas of the scene where objects of fine detail (say tree limbs) are in contrast with a very bright source (say the sun).



Sandy, are you scanning your stained negatives in color? If so, do you then use the channel mixer when de-saturating?

I have developed some negs in pyrocat HD, but don't know if I can tell much difference. I am told that the stain should have some negative masking effect. I was thinking that the greenish color could somehow be useful, if one desaturates in channel mixer properly. Anyone doing this w/ pyro negatives? How should I manipulate the channel mixer sliders for best effect?

I know you can desaturate color images in channel mixer, and can obtain a kind of filtration effect which is kind of neat for brightening or darkening the tones representing certain colors in the scene.

I'm pretty sure my troubles stem from a lack of scanning and ps techniques. I really feel as if I am fighting with a bad negative in the dim room but this is on my monitor...I haven't even gotten to the neg part yet.

Thanks again guys, its back to the book(s) and the scanner with some negs that may be more suitable for me.

I have Dan Burkolders book and plan to get PDN real soon, but can anyone suggest a book on PS that will help more than confuse?

Happy Days
Mark

The best scanning results are obtained when your scanner is calibrated using an IT8 target and calibration software. There are IT8 targets made from each of the main film manufacturers Kodak, Fuiji and Agfa, (and also in tw different sizes - 35mm and 4x5) to my knowledge. Once your scanner is calibrated to the IT8 target and an ICC profile is created for each of the film types, you're all set.

There are also 'generic' IT8 targets out there. These targets are not made on film but are 'printed' on acetate or other transparent 'plastic'.

Regards, Art.

Sandy, are you scanning your stained negatives in color? If so, do you then use the channel mixer when de-saturating?

I have developed some negs in pyrocat HD, but don't know if I can tell much difference. I am told that the stain should have some negative masking effect. I was thinking that the greenish color could somehow be useful, if one desaturates in channel mixer properly. Anyone doing this w/ pyro negatives? How should I manipulate the channel mixer sliders for best effect?

I know you can desaturate color images in channel mixer, and can obtain a kind of filtration effect which is kind of neat for brightening or darkening the tones representing certain colors in the scene.
Jeff,

For b&w negatives the channel mixer is essentially useless. Instead, if you scan your film in RGB mode look at each of the channels; one may provide a better tonal palette than the others, if so split the channels and use the color channel you prefer the most.

Don

Here's a good site that compares different IT8 targets - http://www.computer-darkroom.com/it8cal/it8_page_1.htm

Don's advice is good - but only after your scanner, monitor and printer have been calibrated. Otherwise, what you scan, may not be what you see or what you print.

Regards, Art.

Here's a good site that compares different IT8 targets - http://www.computer-darkroom.com/it8cal/it8_page_1.htm

Don's advice is good - but only after your scanner, monitor and printer have been calibrated. Otherwise, what you scan, may not be what you see or what you print.

Regards, Art.
Art,

I've found that profilling the scanner has little if any effect on scanning B&W negatives, however I may test that again just to be sure. The most import step in the context of this thread is to calibrate and profile ones monitor on a regular basis. Since color management is abandoned when printing digital negatives profiling the printer isn't important.

Don Bryant

Hi Don,

You are absolutely right about B&W negatives.

I wouldn't say colour management is abandoned when printing digital negatives. It's just the profile is inherent - CMYK - when printing.

Regards, Art.

Hi Don,

You are absolutely right about B&W negatives.

I wouldn't say colour management is abandoned when printing digital negatives. It's just the profile is inherent - CMYK - when printing.

Regards, Art.
Art,

No color management means No Color Management (aka prrinter/media profiles).

Don

Sorry Don,

I'm not well versed in digital negatives.

I understand the statement is true for B&W negatives, but what about for colour negatives? Surely, you'd need to have colour management? Even if the colours are reversed?

Please don't think I'm starting a flame, I really am just asking question.

Regards, Art.

Sorry Don,

I'm not well versed in digital negatives.

I understand the statement is true for B&W negatives, but what about for colour negatives? Surely, you'd need to have colour management? Even if the colours are reversed?

Please don't think I'm starting a flame, I really am just asking question.

Regards, Art.
Art,
Normally color negative film isn't profiled for scanning whereas transparency film is profiled.

So assuming that one wanted to start with a color trannie and eventually produce a digital negative for a monochrome process a scanner profile probably would allow for a more accurate tonal replication. Since were are mapping colors to a specific color space before the conversion there would likely be some affect to the eventual conversion to grayscale.

Since I normally don't do this (color original to grayscale) I really have little experience to make an accurate judgement about the process. But I do know that desaturating the imaging usually doesn't lead to good results and the channel mixer seems to provide the most accurate control giving one the most options creatively and tonally.

My emphasis about no color management was meant to point out that none is used in the production of digital negatives as developed by Burkholder or Nelson. It wasn't my intent to be brusk :).

Don

I hope this is an acceptable topic... What type of negatives do scanners respond to best for making enlarged negs on a desktop printer?

Are there films and developers that are better suited than others for this?

Happy Days
Mark

If you're shooting roll film, consider Ilford XP2 Super. It is a C-41 process monochrome film. No grain, little reciprocity failure and can be processed by any lab. This film gives great results with consumer level scanners because you don't have very dense hightlights that are beyond the capabilities of lower-end scanners.

I use an Epson 2450 scanner and have made wonderful platinum and gum/platinum prints up to 12"x18" from digital negs scanned from 6x7 XP2 negs.

Kerik