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wildbillbugman
11-04-2011, 04:03 PM
PE,
Speaking of Halation, is not the pupose of the yellow dye in Jim Browning's matrix emulsion anti-Halation? And that just brought to my mind-A yellow dye Could be a blue accelorater, could it not? But it might supress the green and Red senisizers.
The legendary "panchromatic sensitizing dyes". Do you know enough about them to have one synthesized?
Bill

Photo Engineer
11-04-2011, 04:36 PM
The yellow dye in Jim Browning's Matrix Film is not for halation. It is to limit penetration of light into the coating, which is exposed from the base, so that the image is sharp and limited to the base region. As the emulsion hardens in the tanning developer, it then adheres strongly to the base.

As for dyes, I am investigating getting about 6 grams or so of 3 water soluble dyes.

1. Green sensitive.
2. Red sensitive.
3. Pan sensitive.

An IR dye may come later. This is due to the fact that IR dyes are on the Honeywell site.

The dyes I select will not contain Se, nor will they be subject to "J" aggregation.

More information in a few weeks.

PE

Andrew O'Neill
11-04-2011, 07:02 PM
I emailed Honeywell about their IR dyes a few days, but no reply. Do they deal with individuals?

wildbillbugman
11-04-2011, 07:20 PM
Andrew,
Someone from Honeywell called me regaring my inquiry concerning KF576 S PINA, The emulsion capable of forming J aggrigates. She ask about quantity and I told her honestly, just a few grams. She said that she would speak to Manufacturng and get back to me. She has not.
Bill
I

Andrew O'Neill
11-04-2011, 10:40 PM
Thanks Bill. I guess we are just small fry. I'm in no hurry. I'll wait to see if PE comes up with something.

wildbillbugman
11-04-2011, 10:45 PM
The yellow dye in Jim Browning's Matrix Film is not for halation. It is to limit penetration of light into the coating, which is exposed from the base, so that the image is sharp and limited to the base region. As the emulsion hardens in the tanning developer, it then adheres strongly to the base.

A

PE

PE exposure from the base ,with yellow dye inhibiting exposure further "up" is probably why it works as a matrix film ? With more light ,proportional to the negative density,penetrating further and yeilding higher areas after hardening and clearing.
What about halation ? Should we ignore it, like I have been doing, or might it be an issue for color separation work?
My sugestions about which dyes to try were based on old papers and I do not think that I can out-do you as far as picking dyes is concerned.

wildbillbugman
11-04-2011, 10:49 PM
Andrew,
Assuming that you can obtain some IR sensitizer, what will be your darkroom elumination? A narrow yellow band?
Bill

Hologram
11-05-2011, 06:19 AM
I may have located a source for custom dyes in custom quantities....

Any interest?

PE

At http://www.corchim.ru/catalog/Phot-sen_PH.html they seem to have various spectral sensitizing dyes for AgX...

Andrew O'Neill
11-06-2011, 08:07 PM
Bill, I really don't know. I may become a mole.

wildbillbugman
11-07-2011, 09:59 AM
At http://www.corchim.ru/catalog/Phot-sen_PH.html they seem to have various spectral sensitizing dyes for AgX...

I sent them an email in English. Maybe someone there can read it.
Bill

holmburgers
11-07-2011, 01:08 PM
PE exposure from the base ,with yellow dye inhibiting exposure further "up" is probably why it works as a matrix film ? With more light ,proportional to the negative density,penetrating further and yeilding higher areas after hardening and clearing.

That's right Bill, the yellow dye only works for a blue-sensitive (maybe ortho too) emulsion and is specifically useful for exposing through the base and creating a "tenuous" relief. Too high a relief and you get trouble maintaining flush contact between the matrix and the receiving paper. F.E. Ives first patented this idea and used in for dichromated-gelatin (carbon) matrices. Pan-matrix film used a black dye for the same purpose.

BobCrowley
11-09-2011, 05:25 PM
Do these dyes have known characteristics and chemical names? What is the best reference book on sensitizing dyes? There are a lot of dyes and colorants out there being used in medical applications, and nanotech.

Photo Engineer
11-09-2011, 06:26 PM
The various classes of sensitizing and imaging dyes have been posted here on APUG, some in this and similar threads.

The best current source of the structures of sensitizing dyes is in Mees and James.

Their characteristics are known in detail and are usually ranked in specific orders based on properties such as redox potential, hue, activity with a given halide type and etc.

PE

BobCrowley
11-12-2011, 06:36 AM
I'll have to get that reference. The reason I mention it is that the laser dyes and other things such as quantum dots (that work like dyes) and my own work with tuned to length centrosymmetric molecules (like carbon nanotubes in the 300-1000nm length range) would seem to offer a possible new set of useful sensitizing materials. The PV solar industry uses sensitizing dyes to move toward the red, for instance, and the dyes have to be lightfast and reasonably priced.

BobCrowley
11-13-2011, 04:26 PM
I don't see how to edit that post to include this url, so here's the link to another dye sensitized electron transfer system discussion aimed not at silver halides but other metallic oxides.

http://photochemistryportal.net/home/index.php/2009/08/17/dye-sensitised-solar-cells-dssc/

My own work in carbon nanotubes on SiO2 substrates supports the theory we can tune structures to various colors and enhance efficiency of PV solar using dendritic structures having electrical lengths 1/2 or 1/4 of a wavelength (not accounting for loading by adjacent structures) of the target wavelength, the idea being to make blue sensitive PV work in the red or even IR someday.

Photo Engineer
11-13-2011, 06:29 PM
It seems similar to photographic sensitizing dyes, but with vast differences in structures. I am not the expert on this, but if you wish I can try to put you in contact with a world class expert on this subject. I would need his OK to proceed.

PE

BobCrowley
11-14-2011, 08:23 AM
PE

I'll wait until that book, which I just ordered, comes in and try to determine if there is a crossover opportunity first. It would seem to me that the PV dyes are deposited to perform the same two steps 1. wavelength-specific absorption and 2. excitonic transfer of energy to the charge receptor.

BobCrowley
11-29-2011, 05:50 PM
Mees and James is essential reading, and could take years, as it is so detailed. The authors lament in the introduction that they cannot discuss emulsion making - leaving that to Ron, apparently to write. Two chapters on spectral sensitizing dyes and theory. I was pleased, and astonished, that so long ago Kodak engineers knew all about what nanotechnology scientists are "discovering" today about centrosymmetric dyes and their ability to convert energy at different wavelengths. Today we have new dyes, but they work the same. This is good news and portends easier dye sensitization of our own silver halide emulsions in the future.

OK back to reading this. This is the book.

Photo Engineer
11-29-2011, 06:22 PM
Today's dyes are very soluble in water and therefore are easier to handle! The ones you are reading about are from 50 years ago or so. This is (or was) so secret that we were not allowed to publish! Chemical sensitization with Sulfur and Gold was another restricted topic. I was not let on on the latest in that field until just before I retired. The emulsion scaling software was working so well that they wanted to try to build a finish scaling model based on Activation Energy in K.Cal / Mole of Silver.

Regarding what Mees says in his forward about emulsions, one reviewer of my book has stated that I have written that chapter. I want everyone to know that it is not deeply technical with lots of theory and chemistry. It is more explanatory and practical for home lab use.

PE