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View Full Version : Ever heard or seen this? HiPure Liquid Gelatin (liquid at room temperature)



holmburgers
11-15-2011, 02:16 PM
I came across this intriguing product yesterday. It's a high purity gelatin that remains liquid at room temperature. It's made by Norland Products and called HiPure liquid gelatin. Check it out -> http://www.norlandprod.com/fishgel/hipure.html

Here is what it says about using it as a photographic emulsion...

HiPure Liquid Gelatin is very suitable for use in photographic applications. It is deionized in the manufacturing process to remove all salts and the low molecular weight organic impurities. This gives a very pure gelatin with low ash. It should be noted that HiPure has no cysteine and very little methionine in its composition, so it is very low in sulphur.

HiPure's greatest advantage for photographic coatings is the fact that water solutions remain flowable liquids at room temperature which eliminates many of the handling problems associated with gelatin. Our liquid gelatin eliminates the need for heated coating equipment and its critical temperature and viscosity control. It mixes quickly into water with simple stirring and eliminates the problem of undissolved gelatin which cause coating flaws. HiPure also allows higher solid solutions to be formulated with the inherent advantage of faster drying time. No other gelatin is as easy to use in photographic coatings as HiPure Liquid Gelatin.

I don't really know what to make of it, but I'd love to hear what you folks out there think about it!

Bob Carnie
11-15-2011, 02:49 PM
thanks for posting Chris I am interested

holmburgers
11-15-2011, 02:56 PM
Placer mio!

Apparently it's all fish gelatin derived from cold water fish. You can buy it as a powder as well. They've got a number of different types.

https://www.norlandprod.com/Fishdefault.html

holmburgers
11-15-2011, 03:23 PM
Ok, so it's coming full circle now. I was searching for fish glue because it's mentioned quite a bit in old literature on carbon type processes. Anyways, the liquid gelatin was fascinating in it's own right, but I see now that all of this stuff is technically "fish glue", a.k.a. gelatin made from fish. It appears that all of it stays liquid at room temperature.

Here (https://www.norlandprod.com/fishgel/photoglue.html), the use of dichromates with fish glue is specifically mentioned.

I'm quite curious about its other properties, but being able to pour carbon tissues without a heated water bath for the emulsion is one obvious advantage.

Interesante!

dyetransfer
11-15-2011, 06:14 PM
I wonder if you can harden an image out of this gelatin in-situ? I had an idea of creating matrices for Dye Transfer printing by flowing the emulsion under a piece of film which is vacuumed to a piece of glass above it. You then expose it (either to visible light if it is silver based, or UV light if it is dichromated gelatin), and the emulsion hardens out of the liquid emulsion onto the film. You could even continuously pump and filter it if it doesn't gel. The idea is to eliminate the need for coating the film, so you wouldn't have to worry about coating defects, the need for drying, etc.

- Jim Browning

wildbillbugman
11-15-2011, 08:31 PM
Jim,
Good to see that you are still reading this Forum. I wonder how you have been doing your Dye Transfer work since, I think, you got rid of yuour coating mashine. Coating by hand? I am still working primereily on a Pan emulsion for Color sep. work. I think I just need to ballance sensitivity befor I have a working emulsion. Well, P.E. told me this would not be easy. That was 4 years ago! But I have only been working on it for 3.................................
If you can get the gelatin to harden on exposure at all It might be very,very delicate, with all that water. But "might be" never built an Italian city!
Bill

holmburgers
11-16-2011, 10:42 AM
Jim, that's a very interesting idea!, and kinda out there.. :alien:

I suspect Bill is onto something regarding the fragility. Somewhere on that web-page I read about how fragile fish gelatin is, and of course plasticizers are key. Not sure if it's more fragile than normal gelatin or what.

Though working with a liquid at room temp gelatin might provide some other advantages in coating?

Anybody got an idea of what the isoelectric point of fish gelatin is?

wildbillbugman
11-16-2011, 11:31 AM
Anybody got an idea of what the isoelectric point of fish gelatin is?[/QUOTE]

I will ask my pet goldfish and get back to you.

Mustafa Umut Sarac
11-16-2011, 12:18 PM
I do know fish stomach is the strongest glue on earth.

holmburgers
11-16-2011, 12:31 PM
That sounds positive!

wildbillbugman
11-16-2011, 03:22 PM
My goldfish can't remember the question long enough to answere it.
" The strongest glue on earth" What kind of strong? Strong smelling?

Mustafa Umut Sarac
11-16-2011, 03:41 PM
strongest tasting :)

holmburgers
11-17-2011, 11:09 AM
I thought this was interesting...

If you have a color television set there is a good possibility that the critical part of the television tube, the aperture mask, was made using a photolithographic process with fish gelatin as the photoresist base.

from http://www.norlandprod.com/techrpts/fishgelrpt.html

Photo Engineer
11-17-2011, 11:21 AM
Fish gelatin cannot chill set. It is therefore a thin runny mass at temperatures much around room temps and even below.

If you coat it to use as a relief image, you must remember that it should be exposed through the base to allow adhesion to the support, and since it is not chill set, it causes severe problems in manipulation and handling during exposure.

It is not widely used in photography due to a number of problems. There are extensive publications (patents) on this granted to Kodak and a number of other companies.

PE

dyetransfer
11-17-2011, 11:44 AM
Jim,
Good to see that you are still reading this Forum. I wonder how you have been doing your Dye Transfer work since, I think, you got rid of yuour coating mashine. Coating by hand? I am still working primereily on a Pan emulsion for Color sep. work. I think I just need to ballance sensitivity befor I have a working emulsion. Well, P.E. told me this would not be easy. That was 4 years ago! But I have only been working on it for 3.................................
If you can get the gelatin to harden on exposure at all It might be very,very delicate, with all that water. But "might be" never built an Italian city!
Bill

Bill - I sold all the coating equipment to Bud and the Formulary, and have been using the Fotokemika (Efke brand) film that was coated using my formulation. They coated 3 miles (3 master rolls) of the stuff and I have a freezer full of it. The coating setup was just used to develop the emulsion and make a few prints, I probably could have done that by hand coating, but the original intent was to be able to make 30x40" prints with my home-made matrix film. I did make quite a few 20x24" prints that turned out nicely. Still... you can't beat just taking sheets out of a box for simplicity! The only reason I started the project at all was because I had lots of equipment for making DT prints, and no source of film. I wouldn't have undertaken the project if the film had been available commercially. Talk about the Mother of Necessity!

Regards - Jim

holmburgers
11-17-2011, 11:50 AM
It won't chill set, but it will dry right? Though, I can see how that would be very annoying actually... having to lie flat until dry.

One could add a little fish glue to normal gelatin to lower the gel temperature.

wildbillbugman
11-17-2011, 07:52 PM
All of my emulsions must dry, rather than set. I just put them horizonaly in drawers. Depending on RH they take between 12 to 72 hours to dry. No big deal.
Bill

holmburgers
11-18-2011, 11:19 AM
Well, there you go! Maybe fish gelatin emulsions can be a nice middle ground for vegetarians that east fish, but not other meat. Vegans can stick with Bill's polymers....

:laugh:

Ives' used stained fish-glue reliefs on celluloid to make his Kromskop color pictures. I wonder if there's an advantage for anything?