Well, I can't see where Bergger formulas came from. Were they Forte formulas? Or, were they Bergger made by Forte. In the case of being Forte formulas, how did Bergger get them when Forte went belly up? If they were Bergger formulas, then would Bergger give them to Ilford. Either way, it is a case of giving some degree of trade secret to Ilford.
Then again, will Ilford let Bergger people into their closed areas to make the emulsions or will Bergger make them somewhere else and deliver them to Forte? All of this is very hazy to me.
In the end, it sounds more like Ilford will make products to Bergger specs and they may even cut and package them for Bergger. Or, is another company going to do that?
Oh well, one thing is sure. The price of Bergger products will go up.
Geez whiz you all-can't you calm down and try to appreciate the fact that there is going to be some continuation of these materials. Bergger never made anything as far as I can recollect. they took the formulations and Forte made them to their specs. I do hope that the whoever makes the final product for them will continue to make these old fashioned style type emulsions. I will continue to support the semi-matte formulations either in VC or graded because to me they were the ONLY true warm toned emulsions on the market. if you're going to continue crying about prices go digital and watch your budget skyrocket...do you actually believe that Ilford would be stupid enough to remake their own emulsions into Bergger products?? no way jose; and you can keep debating it till the cows come home. this is nothing but great news for all of us out here in analog world....
Agree with Peter. I have never used Bergger products, but I am happy they will continue to be available.
Originally Posted by Peter Schrager
Sorry but Bergger's Forte-manufactured products were absolutely not the same as the products they produced while the Guilleminot factory was still around. I am 100% positive that Bergger BRF 200 was nothing more than Fortepan 200 - which existed for quite some time before it wore a Bergger label. They are one and the same; I've got about 150 rolls of 120 experience with both BRF and Fortepan 200 that certainly backs that up. And BPFB-18 FILM was not a Bergger emulsion, but one designed by Filmotec of Germany.
But I do share your opinion Fortezo and Polywarmtone were the only true warm-toned graded and VC papers on the market - regardless of whether they wore the Bergger or Forte labels.
As to whether Ilford is stupid - you are missing the point that Ilford MUST run their production infrastructure at a certain capacity or it cannot be proftitable. It's good news for Ilford regardless...but whether we are truly getting Bergger products cannot be answered until they actually hit the market.
Well, I don't claim to actually know anything, but it seems Forte's present ownership has little interest in doing anything other than developing the land on which the Forte factory lies. No reason not to put the formulas up for sale to Gerard & Boucher to take elsewhere to be produced; I doubt many other folks would be lining up to buy them in this age.
Originally Posted by Photo Engineer
And if they actually ARE Bergger formulas; if the choice is between risking loss of IP or folding your tent because you can't get your product produced - well, I think the choice is pretty obvious.
The legalities don't worry me. As for the expense - well, those of in the USA are going to have to get used to paying more for imported stuff in the long-term. That's been a long time coming and it won't be limited to photographic supplies.
I don't doubt for a second that we will see new stock getting produced under a Bergger label by Ilford, but I think we'll simply have to wait and see what sort of products these actually are...
At least it still demonstrates that multiple parties think the production of analog B&W materials are still viable and that isn't anything other than a positive.
... and get an identical product, yes. But Fotoimpex is doing exactly that. Producing the emulsion and have it coated somewhere else as long as the own coating line is not up and running.
Originally Posted by aldevo
Shouldn't Simon be popping in on this at some point soon? It seems strange that there's all this Ilford-Harman talk going on and we have yet to hear from the man in the know.
If the rumour is true, maybe Simon has a good reason not to jump in (yet)....
Originally Posted by Captain_joe6
Well, this is what M Gerard told me: even if formulas will be the same, changes in production line and raw chemicals approvisionnement may provide slight modifications. But global characteristics will be conserved.