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  1. #1
    Struan Gray's Avatar
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    Pre-Dagor Dagors?

    I have a cute little 127mm Goerz Series III Doppel Anastigmat in barrel, and I have just bought a 480 mm version to fit on my winter project: my dormant 12x15" camera, which itself dates from the 1880s.

    I have been looking for information on the Goerz company, but very little seems to be available. The Goerz subsidiary in the USA, and the lenses produced after the merger with Zeiss-Icon in the twenties are well-documented, but the history of the parent company in Berlin is hard to get any concrete data on.

    I know that the Series III was patented 1892, released for sale 1893 and changed name to "Dagor" in 1904. That dates my lenses pretty well, but it would be nice to know some more about them and the company that made them, if only for personal interest. Does anyone have any pointers?

  2. #2
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    I know that there's a bunch of new stuff just posted in the last week or two on the Camera Eccentric website. Might be worth checking there.

    Those ser. iii lenses often have more coverage than the later ones. I use the 168 ser. iii on 8x10" occasionally.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
    Academic (Slavic and Comparative Literature)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com

  3. #3
    Ole
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    I've got another one of those, a CP Goerz Berlin Doppel-Anastigmat Serie III 180mm in a very nice brass barrel. It uses Stoltze aperture numbers, too... I'v on°y got as far as checking that it covers 5x7", but I'll put it on the huge Olga in a few days to see what the image circle looks like.
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  4. #4
    laz
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    Ole, someday, when you have a few spare hours, how about listing for us all the lenses you own?

    (Hmmmm, we could ask Jim Gallie to do the same thing and have a 'lens-off'


    Quote Originally Posted by Ole
    I've got another one of those, a CP Goerz Berlin Doppel-Anastigmat Serie III 180mm in a very nice brass barrel. It uses Stoltze aperture numbers, too... I'v on°y got as far as checking that it covers 5x7", but I'll put it on the huge Olga in a few days to see what the image circle looks like.
    [SIZE=1]I want everything Galli has![/SIZE]
    [SIZE=1]I want to make images like Gandolfi![/SIZE]
    rlazell@optonline.net

  5. #5
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Well, I'll probably be too obvious here, but begin at the beginning: all errors are mine, all good data is from Kingslake, Schwalberg and others.

    We know D A G O R represents Double Anastigmat GOeRz.

    We know that a double anastigmat can be in several forms. Goerz made more than one form of double anastigmat. The other double anastigmat Series included an f/4.5 dialyte ( double anastigmat Goerz type B ) and and f/6.8 ( type C ).

    In 1904, Goerz renamed their lenses, thank goodness. The Series III Double Anastigmat Goerz became Dagor; Type B became Celor; Type C became Syntor. It was for more than convenience: everybody and their cousin was marketing Double Anastigmat lenses at the time.

    Series III is always the DAGOR we have in mind when we think DAGOR. All Dagors are Series III ( and all Series III are DAGORS ) which in the USA said Series III until post WW2, when the Gold Dot and Gold Ring Dagors came into existence to combat the marketing of war surplus Dagors, and various government contract Dagors ( some of which are among the worst lenses ever made, and are still, sadly, circulating in near mint condition on Ebay ). The Gold Dots and Gold Rings are simply Series III lenses, with coating, and cosmetic differences. The Kern made Schneider Dagors are American Optical Series III lenses. The last of the Kern lenses have less coverage due to the limitations of the Compur shutters.

    Goerz began business in the mid 1880s. ( give or take a few months ) and manufactured a range of lenses including landscape objectives, an aplanat called the Paraplanat, and a rapid rectilinear lens named Lynkeioscope, designed by Carl Moser. Goerz hired Emil von Hoegh in 1892, who had tried to get a job at Zeiss and failed. Von Hoegh happened to have a design in his pocket which he presented to his new employer: the 6 element double anastigmat. Moser died in 1892, and was succeeded as head designer by von Hoegh, who retired in 1902, and died in 1915. In the '20s, Goerz was one of many small forms who were amalgamated into the Zeiss combine.

    One of the early products of the Goerz company was a fine camera, designed by Ottomar Anschutz in 1884. The Goerz/Anshutz camera had a focal plane shutter, with a top speed of 1/1000 of a second. The ANGO was a real sweetheart of a camera, and Anshutz a remarkable man in his own right.

    http://www.victorian-cinema.net/anschutz.htm

    http://www.lilienthal-museum.de/olma/eba1894.htm

    Attached is a snap of Otto Lilienthal made by Anshutz in 1894, hopefully with a Dagor.
    .
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

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  6. #6
    Charles Webb's Avatar
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    df cardwell, Thank you for putting together this most informative post.
    I will let others more knowledgable about Dagor matters respond, however I do appreciate this information very much! Charlie......

  7. #7
    df cardwell's Avatar
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    Thanks ! But I can't say too much for Kingslake, Schwalberg, and so on !


    d
    "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid,
    and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision"

    -Bertrand Russell

  8. #8
    Struan Gray's Avatar
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    Thanks for the comments, especially df's, which has filled some holes in my knowledge. It would be nice to turn up a Goerz serial number list, but at least for the Series III things are pinned down to a single decade.

    So far as I know, the Hologon was also called 'Doppel Anastigmat'. Whether the use of the phrase was trying to trade on the good name of Zeiss, or whether it had just become a meaningless tag (like 'APO' today), probably went to the grave with the original designers.

    My little Series III is a cute lens in a curious barrel. Tiny compared to the other 120-130 lenses I have lying about, but no iris and a mounting thread that places the Waterhouse slot behind the mounting board. I don't use it (I have modern offerings, and the oldie has sentimental value) but the big one will make a nice normal lens for my ULF.

    Thanks again.

  9. #9
    Ole
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    Just about everything was a "Doppel Anastigmat", an "Astigmat", or an "Aplanat" in those days. Those terms weren't protected like the "proper" names (Tessar, Protar, Dynar and so on). One of my finest old lenses is an "O. Simon Dresden Weitwinkel Anastigmat No. 3".

    A propos names: Many names were chosen to give the impression of being something they were not. The example in my collection is a Rodenstock Hemi-Anastigmat - nice lens, but absolutely not an anastigmat!

    And BTW: My Serie III has an iris

    Addendum: The Goerz Berlin lenses say "Serie III", not "Series III". Not to be confused with the infamous "Berlin Dagor".
    -- Ole Tjugen, Luddite Elitist
    Norway

  10. #10
    Struan Gray's Avatar
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    Thanks Ole. I was typing fast, but of course, anything that says 'doppel' instead of 'double' is likely to have 'Serie' instead of 'Series'.

    I picked the lens up this afternoon. A beauty, and a beast. Fairly compact for a 480mm f8, but all that brass and glass adds up to nearly 2kg. It will make a fitting normal front end to my Optemus, and it gives me the incentive to sort out my film holders.

    This one too has an iris (slightly wonky, but basically round) marked in what I assume are Stolz (Stoltz?) stops. The smallest stop is marked as something like '1400', which if it were a regular stop would be beyond even my tolerance for diffraction.

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