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  1. #1

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    Any experience with PDN and silver gelatin print?

    Hi,

    I started to make some trials with Mark Nelson's PDN system to calibrate the digital negatives for silver gelatin prints.

    The standard color density pallet didn't work for me. I am using an Epson 4000 printer with pigment inks and Pictorico OHP for the film. I didn't get enough density for the color density combinations given within the system.
    After some trials and guessings I settled on R75 G00 color density.
    The result is just on the right point but critical, and I feel that I should need some more density on the film.
    The fix graded paper -Bergger Silver Supreme- worked better then the varicontrast paper-Bergger VC CB-
    If you have some experiences on this subjects, your opinions will be deeply appreciated.
    Best
    Mehmet Kismet

  2. #2
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    Mehmet,
    What printer driver settings are you using? You may need to switch to a driver setting which lays down more ink--just a thought.
    Let's see what I've got in the magic trash can for Mateo!

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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Moore
    Mehmet,
    What printer driver settings are you using? You may need to switch to a driver setting which lays down more ink--just a thought.
    Jeremy,

    I used the driver for "photo lustre paper" which should lay down a good qty of ink.
    Mark Nelson's system is based on not using black ink at all, in order to avoid noise and grain. For UV sensitive process it must work with some color densities that would block the UV light and so giving density to the film. But for silver printing how to proceed without using black ink?

    I used the R75 G00 color density which uses black ink, and get quite acceptable results. But I feel that the max. density must be a bit higher.
    Just now I will try to expose the silver paper with UV light and will see what happens with the color densities working for UV light. For exemple G255 B50.

    I will share my experiences with you and will be waiting yours if any.
    Best
    Mehmet Kismet

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehmet Kismet
    Hi,

    I started to make some trials with Mark Nelson's PDN system to calibrate the digital negatives for silver gelatin prints.

    The standard color density pallet didn't work for me. I am using an Epson 4000 printer with pigment inks and Pictorico OHP for the film. I didn't get enough density for the color density combinations given within the system.
    After some trials and guessings I settled on R75 G00 color density.
    The result is just on the right point but critical, and I feel that I should need some more density on the film.
    The fix graded paper -Bergger Silver Supreme- worked better then the varicontrast paper-Bergger VC CB-
    If you have some experiences on this subjects, your opinions will be deeply appreciated.
    Best
    Mehmet Kismet
    Mehemet,

    As Jeremy mentioned you didn't mention which Print Quality or Paper choice you are using. Premium Glossy will lay down a lot of ink.

    However in the event that doesn't work Sandy King passed on a technique to me for getting very high density ranges required for VDB, Albumen, or Salt prints developed by Sam Wang. This involves creating a copy of the background layer, with the blend mode set to multiply, filling with black ink and adjusting the opacity setting to obtain the required density.

    I've tested this with VDB and this method provides plenty of density at an opacity of 50% (actually a little to much) giving a UV DR of slightly greater than 2.3.

    The density range of silver gelatin paper shouldn't even begin to require this much contrast though. I can get plenty of density for grade 2 AZO which requires a DR of about 2.1 without resorting to a black ink fill layer.This is with Ultrachrome inks printed with the E 2200 and dye inks used for the 1280.

    I've never used the paper you mention though so who knows. The color combination you mention though doesn't make sense to me - R75 G00.

    Don Bryant

  5. #5
    Jeremy's Avatar
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    Mark's system is also the one I'm using. Try setting it to glossy photo as this lays down more ink at the highest quality than any other setting. If this doesn't work, try emailing Mark directly, he always answers my questions in 48 hours or so.
    Let's see what I've got in the magic trash can for Mateo!

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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by donbga
    Mehemet,

    As Jeremy mentioned you didn't mention which Print Quality or Paper choice you are using. Premium Glossy will lay down a lot of ink.

    However in the event that doesn't work Sandy King passed on a technique to me for getting very high density ranges required for VDB, Albumen, or Salt prints developed by Sam Wang. This involves creating a copy of the background layer, with the blend mode set to multiply, filling with black ink and adjusting the opacity setting to obtain the required density.

    I've tested this with VDB and this method provides plenty of density at an opacity of 50% (actually a little to much) giving a UV DR of slightly greater than 2.3.

    The density range of silver gelatin paper shouldn't even begin to require this much contrast though. I can get plenty of density for grade 2 AZO which requires a DR of about 2.1 without resorting to a black ink fill layer.This is with Ultrachrome inks printed with the E 2200 and dye inks used for the 1280.

    I've never used the paper you mention though so who knows. The color combination you mention though doesn't make sense to me - R75 G00.

    Don Bryant
    Don,

    The quality and paper setting is Photo lustre paper and the printing is at 2800dpi. I can not choose the premium glossy photo paper, I don't know why, but my printer the Epson 4000 gives me a message that I can not use this paper in the paper tray. Maybe I am doing something wrong.
    I tolked with Dick Arentz on the same subject and he told me that after some trials he settled on premium lustre paper for his Epson 4000, but he is printing Pt/Pd not silver.

    For the color combination R75 G00, here is what I am doing: After inverting the RGB picture to negative and having applied the correction curve, I make a new fill layer with solid color of R75 G00 B00 and for the layer set to "screen".
    However the copy layer with multiplied blending idea is interesting. I will try it with only one color but without using the black ink.

    Mehmet Kismet

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehmet Kismet
    Don,

    For the color combination R75 G00,
    Mehmet Kismet
    So after printing the Color Density Range Palette you have choosen this color? With these numbers you are putting very little ink on the substrate, as a matter of fact the two R colors on the CDRP start at 255 and add Green or Blue ink. How did you derive those numbers?

    Don

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by donbga
    So after printing the Color Density Range Palette you have choosen this color? With these numbers you are putting very little ink on the substrate, as a matter of fact the two R colors on the CDRP start at 255 and add Green or Blue ink. How did you derive those numbers?

    Don
    Don,

    After printing the CDRP at the standard printing time, none of the colors gave me paper white, but the clearest one was somewhere in middle grays. So the CDRP didn't worked for me. I dropped the CDRP and searched another combination of colors with minimum use of black ink. That is how I found the fill layer with screen blend mode having the solid color of R75 G00 B00. My digital negative for silver has now a dark red color. But I am not sure if that is the best one.
    The first print that I made from is not so bad, but I can say that a good eye can see that this is made from an inkjet negative.
    Mehmet

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehmet Kismet
    Don,

    After printing the CDRP at the standard printing time, none of the colors gave me paper white, but the clearest one was somewhere in middle grays. So the CDRP didn't worked for me. I dropped the CDRP and searched another combination of colors with minimum use of black ink. That is how I found the fill layer with screen blend mode having the solid color of R75 G00 B00. My digital negative for silver has now a dark red color. But I am not sure if that is the best one.
    The first print that I made from is not so bad, but I can say that a good eye can see that this is made from an inkjet negative.
    Mehmet
    Mehmet,

    Wow those are surprising results! And it appears that you have already added black ink thus the low values for the colored ink settingd.

    What is the density range of the paper? That is, how many steps from black to white does your step wedge show (lapped or unlapped)?

    I'm at a loss to explain why the Premium Glossy setting isn't available in the Print Quality setting for the 4000 driver. It just sounds like you need more ink to increase the density range. Have you e-mailed Mark Nelson about this? He may have some insight about the 4000 settings.

    This is an interesting problem. FWIW, I choose the R=255 B=10 when testing AZO with the 1280 dye inkset. I've noticed a dithering pattern though so I'm not happy with that result. Perhaps using Red accentuates this effect.

    Maybe someone else has an insight to the problem. I'm interested to hear how you make out with this problem.

    Don

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by donbga
    This is an interesting problem. FWIW, I choose the R=255 B=10 when testing AZO with the 1280 dye inkset. I've noticed a dithering pattern though so I'm not happy with that result. Perhaps using Red accentuates this effect.
    Don,
    I have noticed that the Red ink settings seem to fare worse than the blue or green. On the C66 (durachrome pigment inks), the choices with red gave the grainiest results.
    Let's see what I've got in the magic trash can for Mateo!

    blog
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