Azo and the Digital Negative

[Nathan Jones]

I thought I dispatched this post last night, but it never surfaced on the website. Here we go again...

Dear Forum Members:

I have been monitoring this site for several months and have finally been compelled to appeal to it.

I recognize that printing with digital negatives on Azo is at the margins of the scope of this (essentially analogue) forum, but it is contact printing, it could be considered "alternative", and it does retain certain "traditional" elements. Anyway, it is clear that the constituents of this forum inlcude some of the most knowledgeable working traditional photographers in the world. And I think, aesthetically, what I am striving to achieve fits in. I need some help, so here we go...

I have been practicing photography for a quarter century. I worked as a commercial river guide for many years (all over the world) especially in Grand Canyon. This afforded me some remarkable opportunities for black and white photography. For years I worked with an ancient Linhof 6X9 cm view camara with a 120 roll film back. About five years ago I upgraded to a 1960's model Linhof Technika IV 4X5. Until recently I worked with an enlarger. I decided to take the "blinders" off and look a little closer at what, if any, advantages the digital revolution may have to offer my work flow. This required overcoming a strong viceral aversion to anything "non-traditional" in terms of fine art photography. Well, I determined that there was indeed tremendous potential in incorporating a digital component in my
work flow ---and I do not have to give up the traditional camara, negative, or printing process. So it has been several months assembling and familiarizing myself with various equipment and basic digital skills. I am using a Mac G4, and Imacon 646 Flextight Scanner, an Epson Ultrachrome Pro Stylus 7600 Printer with MIS associates "Eboni" inkset, a Nuarc Vacuum Frame, a Nuarc Plate Burner (for future use with Platinum/Palladium), and an Eseco TRC-60D Reflection/Transmission Densitometer ---among other things ---all of the above purchased over the last 10 months used, or refurbished ---still a hefty investment, in terms of both time and money.

I have been working with Mark Nelson's Precision Digital Negatives (PDN) system. I decided first to apply this system to use with Azo (Grade 3) with Michael Smith's Amidol formula. ---This seems like an ideal application for the digital negative. I strongly suspect there must be other Azo forum members whom are attempting this or have already successfully applied this combination.

I have done some preliminary contact printing on Azo Grade 3 directly from my 4X5 negatives using Michael's formula. I am enticed, to say the least. Beautiful tonal range and resolution. A little cold. A little high in contrast. But I am optimistic I can address these issues with practice.

The challange I am up against is achieving adaquate color density on the Pictorico OHP substrate to achieve paper white. The original printer driver I was using (called a "Gimp" driver) would not allow me to turn off color management ---which is apparently critical to succeeding with digital negatives. I could, with the Gimp, achieve paper white on Azo(G3). Now I have switched to using the Epson driver designed for this printer, and I have not yet been able to get enough color density to make paper white (though color management has been removed from the equation). Are there other custom drivers available that provide more control over ink densities? How have others done this? There has got to be a way.

Any clues, suggestions, etc?

Nathan Jones
Salt Lake City

[jd callow]

There is a forum for what you are asking it is the grey area forum. I have moved your post there.

[roteague]

Sorry, Nathan I don't do B&W. However, you may want to take a look at West Coast Imaging to see if they can help you. They print B&W on a Epson 4800 with K3 inks.

[sanking]

The challange I am up against is achieving adaquate color density on the Pictorico OHP substrate to achieve paper white. The original printer driver I was using (called a "Gimp" driver) would not allow me to turn off color management ---which is apparently critical to succeeding with digital negatives. I could, with the Gimp, achieve paper white on Azo(G3). Now I have switched to using the Epson driver designed for this printer, and I have not yet been able to get enough color density to make paper white (though color management has been removed from the equation). Are there other custom drivers available that provide more control over ink densities? How have others done this? There has got to be a way.

Any clues, suggestions, etc?

Nathan Jones
Salt Lake City

Why not contact Mark Nelson directly about this. I have not heard of anyone using the 7600 to make digital negatives so you chances of getting any information are slight IMO.

I do have a suggestion, however, and that would be to add a mix of black ink to the color inks to up transmitted density. Someone described a technique for doing this in one of the early threads in this gray forum.

I also have a comment. You may be happy with the results of digital negatives on AZO with Pictorico if you are enlarging from 4X5. However, the results will not be quite as good as with in-camera negatives on AZO if you were to compare contact prints from 11X14, 7X17 and 12X20 in-camera negatives. For alternative printing such as palladium and printing, however, digital negatives on Pictorico are far all practical purposes just as good as in-cameras negatives, at least in my opinion

Sandy

[David A. Goldfarb]

Also, if you haven't already posted on the Azo forum at www.michaelandpaula.com, there may be some folks over there who have some ideas for you.

[Nathan Jones]

Dear Sandy

King? If so, you are the one I had really hoped to hear from. Thanks for responding. I have been in regular contact with Mark Nelson via the PDN forum. He had indicated he thought you might be one person that had been down this road before and solved some of the challanges of this combination. Mark has been extremely patient and helpful. He suspects its this MIS inkset I am using. So a change back to Epson inks is looming. I invested in the Eboni inkset because I had assumed it would serve a double purpose: 1) Produce a nice warm "Black Only" print for proofing purposes, and 2) Provide the colors to generate digital negatives for final prints.

I've gotton a lot of responses from my recent posting of this issue on several forums. I'll be reviewing, digesting and experimenting with it all to determine how to proceed.

Have you indeed made prints with digital negatives on Azo (Grade 3) with which you are pleased?

Thanks again for your response,

Nathan

[sanking]

Hi Nathan,

Yes, I am Sandy King. I believe that if you were to switch back to the Epson inks you would get enough density to print with colored inks which would allow you to take advantage of the full precision of Mark Nelson's PDN system.

However, since you are an owner of the PDN system I could send you a special palette that will allow you to blend black in with green in a special layer. This should give you plenty of contrast for printing with AZO 2 with your present inks. If intersected, just send me your email address and I will send you the file.

Finally, I have made some very nice 12X20 prints on both AZO 2 and AZO 3 from digital negatives on Pictorico that started life as in-camera 5X7 originals. However, in comparing prints made with these negatives with prints of the same scene made with 12X20 in-camera original negatives the latter show a slight superiority. Compared to the prints from the in-camera negatives the prints made with the digital negatives show a more pronounced grain pattern, and if you look at the prints carefully you will see the dithering pattern of the printer some of the higher zones, say VI through VIII. The grain is much on the order of what you would see in a 16X20 print made from a 6X6 ASA 400 film. It is not bad, just more than what you would expect to see from an in-camera contact print from an ASA 400 film.

Sandy

Dear Sandy

King? If so, you are the one I had really hoped to hear from. Thanks for responding. I have been in regular contact with Mark Nelson via the PDN forum. He had indicated he thought you might be one person that had been down this road before and solved some of the challanges of this combination. Mark has been extremely patient and helpful. He suspects its this MIS inkset I am using. So a change back to Epson inks is looming. I invested in the Eboni inkset because I had assumed it would serve a double purpose: 1) Produce a nice warm "Black Only" print for proofing purposes, and 2) Provide the colors to generate digital negatives for final prints.

I've gotton a lot of responses from my recent posting of this issue on several forums. I'll be reviewing, digesting and experimenting with it all to determine how to proceed.

Have you indeed made prints with digital negatives on Azo (Grade 3) with which you are pleased?

Thanks again for your response,

Nathan

[Nathan Jones]

Folks,

Fairly new to APUG, I didn't realize before my posting the amount of material already here regarding digital negs (including with Azo). I knew I was dealing on the margins, but I had never ventured into this "Gray" area before. My posting would have been different had I had the advantage of reviewing the preceeding forum material. Some folks here have tackled some significant problems and have been generous with their expertise.

Thanks,

Nathan Jones

[jeannette]

Hi Nathan,

I too am new to APUG, so I hope I am not offering redundant information. I use a 7600 for my digital negatives for salt, cyanotype, van dyke brown, and gum prints. I've used the Pictorico film and I find it to be the best out there, but very expensive. I've not used Mark Nelson's system, but I can share with you what I have used.

My 7600 has the epson photo dye set in it, instead of ultrachrome. However, I have used the 2200 with epson ultrachrome with photo black and have got very pleasing results as well. I set my epson printer driver to:

Black ink only
1440 dpi
Backlight Film
No Color Management

I print through Photoshop but am trying to learn a RIP (Wasatch) to see if the result is any better.

-Jeannette