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  1. #11
    David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Just for the record, we do allow, for instance, sales of digital equipment like scanners and digital cameras in the "miscellaneous" category of the classifieds, so if a sponsor wants to advertise a digital service or something like this in their own sponsor forum, it may be a marketing faux pas, but it's not against the rules.
    flickr--http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidagoldfarb/
    Photography (not as up to date as the flickr site)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com/photo
    Academic (Slavic and Comparative Literature)--http://www.davidagoldfarb.com

  2. #12

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    I didn't really see this as a discussion, but a discount/incentive for APUG members. The first part being the 10% off, the second part being a free membership.

  3. #13
    fdi
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    Hi Eddie,

    That is an interesting thought but I think the needs are little different. Apug has lots of members but needs cash to support the activities of the members such as the web server maintenance. Normally as a sponsor my company is donating cash or discounts to the other company. In the case of Aardenburg Imaging Mark did not just want my cash. He needs members. The members are helping to contribute test items, feedback and assisting with real world testing. For my company to actually help provide members was a lot more complicated and requires special software on the Aardenburg site as well as mine.

    Cheers,
    Mark

  4. #14
    fdi
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    To APUG – I do agree that APUG is a wonderful recourse and I enjoy being a sponsor. I was not aware of the hybrid forum when I made the post and I had assumed that although everyone here shot film, that not everyone was using a wet darkroom. Regardless of my sponsorship status I do not feel that gives me the right to abuse a forum and it is of upmost importance to me that the forum owners and members always consider me to be a positive contributor.

    My apologies for offending some of the membership and the spirit of the forum with what David refers to as my “marketing faux pas”.

    I have learned from this exchange and I will be more careful in the future.

    Sincerely,
    Mark Rogers

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by fdi View Post
    I had assumed that although everyone here shot film, that not everyone was using a wet darkroom.
    I think that is true. We just aren't allowed to talk about. Though I scan and use a wet darkroom, I don't find the hybrid site to be that useful. It seems more directed at digital negatives, alternative processes, and high end scanners.

  6. #16
    keithwms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Gray View Post
    I think that is true. We just aren't allowed to talk about. Though I scan and use a wet darkroom, I don't find the hybrid site to be that useful. It seems more directed at digital negatives, alternative processes, and high end scanners.
    You could take it in other directions, though. I think hybridphoto got off to a rocky start and people (like myself) who tried to contribute there really got tired of the same old questions over and over: which scanner should I buy? what's the best scanner? etc. If people who wish to explore more interesting topics would participate there and bring some energy to the place, it'd be a lot more active. But there are so many other sites that discuss digistuff.

    In my opinion, at APUG, we really need to embrace what makes us different, and that is the analogue process. That's all I have to say about this.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by keithwms View Post
    You could take it in other directions, though. I think hybridphoto got off to a rocky start and people (like myself) who tried to contribute there really got tired of the same old questions over and over: which scanner should I buy? what's the best scanner?
    Agreed. I actually think it's a cool thing they are doing over there with the alternative processes, but one that I'm not in the position to participate in as of now.

    However, a lot of people I interact with on the internet DO want to shoot (some) film, want to scan, but don't know where to start. A couple of FAQs might help them out, even if it is here on APUG. A sticky posting in a forum, with a link to a FAQ over at Hybrid photo might do a lot to alleviate problems, both here and there. A FAQ could include an overview of good scanners for 35mm and other formats, as long as some pointers to using Vuescan, etc.

    I spend some time on one of the mostly digital forums, strictly as a film user, and often try to help field questions about film usage. People are interested, but are sometimes are a bit put off by APUG.

  8. #18
    keithwms's Avatar
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    In your view, Tim, how could APUG be more welcoming to newcomers to film?

    This bunker mentality of "shoot film or we won't speak to you" isn't welcoming, I realize that. However, discussing inkjet vs. optical or digital vs. film and all that simply excites all manner of silly emotional arguments.

    I do think hybridphoto could be a lot more welcoming. Last time I was there, somebody crawled up a newcomer's ass for showing a digital shot in the gallery that (s)he wanted to print via hybrid means. Some people seemed to think that the work flow behind each and every post on the site had to be agreeable with their [vaguely defined] standards, period. As I tried to point out, hybridphoto is doomed if its mission is that narrow. As for me, I simply haven't gone back since I saw it turning into "What scanner should I buy." I mean, why don't they just rename it WSSIB. What scan software should use, etc. And there are only a few scanners and two or three decent software packages on the market anyway, for crying out loud.
    Last edited by keithwms; 04-10-2010 at 04:51 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by fdi View Post
    I am afraid I was not aware of hybridphoto.com. I will look into helping support that site as well. It looks like some people are doing some interesting things over there.

    Cheers,
    Mark
    Nor I, but then again, I'm a brand new participant in APUG as well.

    I'm trying to get my bearings. I still shoot film, and I have decades of experience in the darkroom. However, when Kodak killed my beloved Dye Transfer process, I went to the IRIS 3047 and at that point, I was an early adopter of hybrid film/ digital workflows. As I now understand it, APUG is trying to confine the discussion to a strictly classical analog photographic workflow. While I understand this philosophical construct really well and have a soft spot in my heart for it, the simple fact is that anyone shooting with film these days is going to be hard pressed not to move to some kind of hybrid analog-digital workflow, if not for all of one's work, at least for some of it. So, I also just joined the Hybridphoto.com site, but I have mixed emotions about all of this. I really hate to compartmentalize my comments along these analog-digital divides. I'd feel much happier in a forum where the members didn't freak out if I was talking about mixing and matching digital and analog technologies as opposed to talking about pure analog workflows only. No doubt, I wasn't here when the decision to move the "gray area" over to a new site called hybridphoto.com occurred. Had I been, I would have strongly suggested it's a mistake. But that's water under the bridge.

    Anyway, I want the Aardenburg Imaging and Archives digital print research program not to overlook the classic processes, and indeed add some important ones as benchmarks to compare modern digital output to in terms of print longevity.

    I will try to stay all analog on this forum. In that spirit, I would like to say that my years in strictly analog photography leave me with a soft spot in my heart for it. After all, I have a degree in Photographic science from RIT, and it was all analog at the time! My new company, Aardenburg-imaging & Archives is trying to change the game for the way print longevity information is presented to the consumer. In particular, I'm trying to give relevant print permanence information for fine art printmaking community rather than more liberal consumer photofinishing requirements. My test methods lend themselves naturally to digital workflows, but when I created my test targets I kept in mind the idea that the targets should be possible to print using purely analog workflows as well. So, I standardized on a color target the is mostly comprised of the Macbeth ColorChecker Chart. Hence, analog practitioners can simply photograph the ColorChecker target to produce test samples I can evaluate. Similarly, the monochrome target I use, ableit very easy to reproduce in a digital workflow, can in effect by printed using strictly analog workflows as well. What all this means is that the Aardenburg Imaging & Archives light fade testing program is in fact extensible to analog workflows as well.

    One of my goals for this year is to get the classic analog color processes of Ilfochrome (formerly Cibachrome) and Kodak Dye Transfer into test using the latest lightfade testing protocols before these materials become totally lost to the ages. Likewise, I'm looking to bring some classical silver gelatin print materials into light fade testing. We've always assumed they have no light fastness issues, but in fact, many have optical brighteners in the gelatin layers, so there may indeed be some lightfastness sensitivity.

    Glad to be here,

    Mark
    http://www.ardenburg-imaging.com

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by keithwms View Post
    In your view, Tim, how could APUG be more welcoming to newcomers to film?

    ...

    And there are only a few scanners and two or three decent software packages on the market anyway, for crying out loud.
    I do think APUG should stay all analog, for the most part. A simple page discussing scanners and some walk throughs on software would be helpful to some new users. This could even be on Hybridphoto, and just linked to from here. It would probably save a lot of people effort from retyping replies to those questions if you could just reply with a link.

    It's a particularly touchy subject when it comes to color. I don't shoot much color, but I do it sometimes. One only has to look in the color subforum to see how confusing it is to even get the right chemicals at home to develop it. Then, if you are interested in printing, sheet paper seems to be going away. I hate to be a pessimist, but if we want to encourage color film usage, I fear we will have to accept the scanning workflow soon.

    I agree with you. It doesn't take much research to find the 3 affordable and good scanners on the market (some of which I'm not even sure they make now). Likewise with scanning software. I managed to figure it out with a couple hours of poking about. But, a lot of people don't 'get' this stuff as easily, and putting up some pointers might encourage more usage. Again, it could and probably should be on hybridphoto, but that doesn't mean we can't link to it and put a sticky. But I do know that if I posted a link to my writeup on how to scan B&W with Vuescan, I'd get knocked for it.

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