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  1. #21
    smieglitz's Avatar
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    Is the woodworking hide glue the same thing as an oil painters' canvas glue sizing? Photographic ossein sizing?

  2. #22

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    Hide glue yes, same thing no

    Quote Originally Posted by smieglitz
    Is the woodworking hide glue the same thing as an oil painters' canvas glue sizing? Photographic ossein sizing?
    Same family, diffierent stuff. Historically and still used but now not exclusively, the glue you are referring to is "rabbit skin" glue. Smells like it to when you warm it prior to mixing in the calcium carbonate filler.

    It has less strength due to many factors. It does have to be more flexible and this is reflected in the ultimate strength.

    As an aside if you are using hot hide glue of any sort and the odour gets to you neighbours or loved ones, try adding a very small drop of oil of cloves. It will not only mask the odour to some degree but is a preservative as hot glue will eventually "go off" and begin walking away on you. If you hale from a middle east background you accomplish much the same but you would use garlic. Probably not the thing to make vampire caskets from.

    Liquid hide glues have amongst other things a preservative. By the odour I have always suspected formalin or something similar. Unless thinned out and left out uncovered I have never had any cold liquid hide glue go off.

    If you warm and sometimes lightly thin the hide glues you can actually immerse decayed and rot deteriorated wood in a pot of it. Once it has absorbed the glue and cured, it has been consolidated to a great degree. Not for anything structural but it works on classic furniture where you need to preserve. Of course you can't do this with any wood you can see through parts for that we do other things.

    You are right to be wary of metal pins of substantial circumference in wood. Especially if the wood is not sealed. Note, use of substantial circumference descriptor. Wood, cycling through humidity changes, and meeting a noncompressible material (the metal peg) will change its hole size due to a phenomenon known as "compression set-tension hold". However, if the pin is narrow it seems to suffer less ie. nails. However, wooden pegs, dowels, tree-nails, trennels, whatever, actually hold better, longer, and more sure. Having said that copper and other metal pins have been used for hundreds of years for decorative purposes.

    Sorry to have strayed away from hide glue and into the pin discussion.

    Regards

    Mark MacKenzie
    Mark MacKenzie, M.A.C.
    Art Conservator
    Past Ink Publishing
    Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
    S7H 2S6

  3. #23
    smieglitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark G MacKenzie
    Same family, diffierent stuff. Historically and still used but now not exclusively, the glue you are referring to is "rabbit skin" glue.
    I believe Elmer's brand may be "wabbit skin" glue.

    FWIW, I'll also be wabbetting some white baffles in this camwa as well.

    Seriously, thanks again for the info. I'm actually leaning towards a bridle joint now after reading all this.

    I'd still like to use some copper pins in the camera though. What would you consider to be a "substantial circumference"? Originally, I was thinking of 3/16" diameter dowels in 3/4" square stock.

    If I used a simple butt joint and glued that with the hide glue and then added a copper pin as described above, what sort of strength might that joint have compared to a bridle joint?

    I suppose I could always use a threaded insert in the long end piece, cut some threads and a screw slot on the dowel, and just screw the two pieces together (+/- some glue on the butt joint). That might look cool.

    Joe

  4. #24
    Jim Jones's Avatar
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    Here in the midwest a favored wood for hardness and toughness is the common hedge tree, also known as Osage orange and bodark. I'd use it in preference to metal for dowel pins.

  5. #25
    Donald Qualls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smieglitz
    I believe Elmer's brand may be "wabbit skin" glue.
    Wrong Elmer...

    Elmer's (assuming you're talking about white glue) was casein (milk) based about 40-45 years ago. It's been polyvinyl acetate since around 1970. It was never gelatin based (hide glue, bone glue, what have you), though the *original* Elmer's glue was a "hide" glue; Elmer, the bull on the label, was there because he was the source of the glue, back when "glue factory" was the destination for any animal bone that wasn't due to wind up on a table as part of a cut of meat. Of course, you can get almost any kind of glue you want with the Elmer's brand on it -- Elmer's makes an aliphatic resin (yellow) carpenter's glue identical to Titebond, and a waterproof version just like Titebond II, for instance. Wouldn't surprise me in the least to find Elmer's now making a liquid hide glue similar to the Titebond product Mark mentioned.
    Photography has always fascinated me -- as a child, simply for the magic of capturing an image onto glossy paper with a little box, but as an adult because of the unique juxtaposition of science and art -- the physics of optics, the mechanics of the camera, the chemistry of film and developer, alongside the art in seeing, composing, exposing, processing and printing.

  6. #26

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    For the finger joints use hide glue as discussed. For the metal to wood connection use epoxy. I use it all the time in my clock making and it works great. Systems 3 epoxy is the best the stuff but pricey and only comes in larger sizes. I adhere metal to wood frequently and I also use cyanocrylate (CA) glue on wood daily. CA glue has never casued a problem for me and wood turners also use it to bond green wood right on the lathe. Its the only glue that bonds wet green wood as far as i know. You'll find world renowned bowl turners selling $1000.00 bowls that are held together with nothing but CA glue. You will also find for butt joints the newer elmers pro bond is the best rated yellow glue for end grain joints such as a butt joint. Tite bond failed before elmers pro bond failed in a test done by wood mag last year or so. You may consider using a poly glue for the lace wood as normal yellow wood glue (tite bond, elmers etc) will not bond oily exotics.

  7. #27
    Donald Qualls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Bob
    CA glue has never casued a problem for me and wood turners also use it to bond green wood right on the lathe. Its the only glue that bonds wet green wood as far as i know. You'll find world renowned bowl turners selling $1000.00 bowls that are held together with nothing but CA glue.
    The big deal with CA is to use a good one, not the "Krazy Glue" sold on the impulse racks at K-Mart. Go to a model building shop and get Jet, or Zap, or the shop's own rebranded version (there's a company that sells the stuff with a blank label and lets the hobby shop put their own name on it -- perfectly fine stuff). The difference is the good CA is pretty much pure CA resin (in the thin form; the "thick" and "slow" versions contain fillers and really require the "kicker" catalyst to get full utility), as thin as water and just as clear, while the stuff sold as "Krazy Glue" and similar is about 50% or less. I've never managed to stick anything in my life with the "impulse rack" CA glues, but the hobby shop glues are good enough to use in human-carrying aircraft construction. I've got a couple model airplane wings that I built 20+ years ago with Zap and Zap-a-Gap, and I'd still trust them in 20G maneuvers (that'd be a wing, built of balsa and spruce, that weighs less than a pound, on a five pound airplane, supporting a lift load of about 100 lbs).
    Photography has always fascinated me -- as a child, simply for the magic of capturing an image onto glossy paper with a little box, but as an adult because of the unique juxtaposition of science and art -- the physics of optics, the mechanics of the camera, the chemistry of film and developer, alongside the art in seeing, composing, exposing, processing and printing.

  8. #28
    barryjyoung's Avatar
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    I really enjoyed Marks informative and authoritive posts on hide glue. I agree with everything he said. I also agree with Billy Bob on the use of epoxy. If the box joint is tight I would use Titebond liquid hide glue which I have found to be a convenient alternative to a glue pot. If the joint were loose I would use West Systems 30 minute cure time epoxy available at marine stores. West systems epoxy is the best I have ever used. The nice thing about epoxy for loose joints is that you can mix it with fine sawdust from a lighter colored wood (It will darken a lot when mixed with the epoxy) to act as an extremely effective gap filling adhesive. If you don't want to spend $40 per pint for epoxy, do the footwork and find Devcon brand epoxy in a syringe dispenser, it is miles beyond Loctite available at Home Despot from a quality point of view. Epoxy can also be mixed with toner (fun job) for sealing light leaks. After the joint is glued, wipe off all the excess possible with a dry colorfast cloth and use waxed paper between your clamps and the wood. this will make finishing the cured joint easier.
    Barry Young
    Young Camera Company

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