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  1. #81
    David Brown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    ... I feel this site is nearing a rethink of its mission and what analog photography means in 2012. Otherwise, the narrowmindedness and parochialism often in evidence could be its undoing.
    It could be.

    However, as someone who's been here for many more years than you, I have to state that the original "mission" of APUG was not anti-digital. (It has always been unfortunate that we attracted the rabid types - on both sides.) APUG was (and is) not anti-digital, it is just a place that analog practitioners can discuss analog without having digital being forced into every discussion. In the early days that was a problem. The site is much more tolerant now. (See this thread)

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGW View Post
    Reactionary crank is more like it.(With respect, read some E.J. Hobsbawn for what Luddism was about). The dismissal of all things non-analog wins PKM-25 and others nothing but raised eyebrows and zero cred among their intended audience. I show/give prints to friends, acquaintances, models, and even street shot subjects if I can re-connect with them. They like them for the "look" but also that the print is theirs, a tangible one-off, an "ongoing moment" as Geoff Dyer says. It's not about gear fondling or smugness. It's about the qualitative difference in the images that most people can see immediately. On that, I feel this site is nearing a rethink of its mission and what analog photography means in 2012. Otherwise, the narrowmindedness and parochialism often in evidence could be its undoing.
    It's nice to have friends in the world who email you to tell you that someone is talking smack about you on a forum, LOL!

    Look sir, I never meant to imply that I am the only one doing something to promote film use, sorry you took that personally to the point that you have to target me like this.

    The fact of the matter is that I have been shooting digital professionally for over 18 years, been there done that and I am still doing it. I have nearly 200,000 frames on my D700, tens of thousands on my X100 which is not even a year old, both killer rigs to shoot with. I have a D4 on order, etc…

    But I love film, I love the mystery, the unintended consequence of visually meandering from the norm, or at least the perceived one. So I am fighting tooth and nail to shoot less commercial and editorial work in which digital is a requirement and instead, is an option and do more fine art and book projects in which I call the shots, and shoot film.

    Here is why I feel we are not doing enough to promote film use, this site included: In terms of mainstream / consumer use, film is toast, no argument there. But the hype engine that is the internet is making the mainstream / consumer level camera user think it is gone, period. They think you can not get film anywhere. When Kodachrome was nixed, I can not tell you how many people thought that meant that FILM was nixed!

    The simple fact remains that if enough people use a product, there will be at least some form of business model to be had from that. But if far less people use film or at least seek out the option because they keep hearing film is dead and see no evidence that it is alive and well, then we are screwed.

    So how about knocking off the targeting of me, show some work on here, like you do out there? It is go time for all of us, otherwise….

  3. #83
    CGW
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    Quote Originally Posted by PKM-25 View Post
    It's nice to have friends in the world who email you to tell you that someone is talking smack about you on a forum, LOL!

    Look sir, I never meant to imply that I am the only one doing something to promote film use, sorry you took that personally to the point that you have to target me like this.

    The fact of the matter is that I have been shooting digital professionally for over 18 years, been there done that and I am still doing it. I have nearly 200,000 frames on my D700, tens of thousands on my X100 which is not even a year old, both killer rigs to shoot with. I have a D4 on order, etc…

    But I love film, I love the mystery, the unintended consequence of visually meandering from the norm, or at least the perceived one. So I am fighting tooth and nail to shoot less commercial and editorial work in which digital is a requirement and instead, is an option and do more fine art and book projects in which I call the shots, and shoot film.

    Here is why I feel we are not doing enough to promote film use, this site included: In terms of mainstream / consumer use, film is toast, no argument there. But the hype engine that is the internet is making the mainstream / consumer level camera user think it is gone, period. They think you can not get film anywhere. When Kodachrome was nixed, I can not tell you how many people thought that meant that FILM was nixed!

    The simple fact remains that if enough people use a product, there will be at least some form of business model to be had from that. But if far less people use film or at least seek out the option because they keep hearing film is dead and see no evidence that it is alive and well, then we are screwed.

    So how about knocking off the targeting of me, show some work on here, like you do out there? It is go time for all of us, otherwise….
    Thought you were checking out last week? But then the soap box and sidewalk are free, no?

    History. Kodachrome was no longer viable. Never shot the stuff 'cause I didn't like the look. Working pros stopped shooting it in the early/mid-90s when Velvia knocked it off photo editors' light tables. Amateurs followed suit, especially after processing became inconvenient. Film demand went over the falls a decade ago. In a sense, we're already "screwed," in your terms. One of the oldest(57 years in biz) and once busiest labs in Toronto is closing next week after a long death watch. Not the stuff to mention to a film rookie or potential recruit.

    Think you're flattering yourself as a contrarian. One of my favorites was the late Christopher Hitchens, who was also a realist and informed. All I'm reading is self-congratulation and denial from you, along with the odd bitch slap to people, like me, you don't know. I do what I can, how I can, when I can. Try not to offend people accidentally? You're preaching to the converted here.

  4. #84
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    The problem for film is almost entirely economic.

    It is far more expensive to use or promote film.

    Each roll costs money as does processing and printing/scanning. there's no instant gratification like with digital.

    So if you want to keep film as a viable medium, you actually have to make the higher cost something that is a benefit, not a problem.

    It's like slow food, or a day long BBQ, or a 7 course French meal. Patience is a virtue. The suspense is worth the wait. A few extra dollars for a product with character is better than a cheap shot.

    Film is not mainstream and never will be again. It's the path less walked. The road less traveled. This is a good thing and a market can be reconstructed out of that.

    Being pro-film should not mean being anti-digital. Anti-digital is counter-productive. Digital services and crossover users are now the lifeblood of film.

    Ironically, people from digital like to try film in part because they can waste a zillion shots on digital perfecting technique without blowing money on practise rolls (sorry Kodak). That's the new normal gateway into film photography and should be embraced. Think of all the people who guy from APS-C digital sensors to Medium Format film. That's quite a leap, yet it's made possible entirely because of the practice phenomenon.

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    ...
    Ironically, people from digital like to try film in part because they can waste a zillion shots on digital perfecting technique without blowing money on practise rolls (sorry Kodak). That's the new normal gateway into film photography and should be embraced. Think of all the people who guy from APS-C digital sensors to Medium Format film. That's quite a leap, yet it's made possible entirely because of the practice phenomenon.
    I use this technique myself when I'm in (what is to me) a tricky lighting situation. Out comes the digital P&S. It doesn't tell me the aperture and shutter speed it uses, but I can dial in exposure compensation in 1/3 stop increments from -2 to +2 stops. When I get a shot I like on the digital P&S, I dial in the same exposure compensation on the 35mm SLR and take the shot, confident that I have indeed gotten the shot. Bracket? Yep. I bracket with the digital. Once the digital image is exposed the way I want it, it gets committed to film with the film camera.

    ME Super

  6. #86
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    Segedi.com

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristophanes View Post
    It's the path less walked. The road less traveled. This is a good thing and a market can be reconstructed out of that.
    Agreed. We need to focus on the unique capabilities of film and not pick futile battles. As the saying goes, you can wrestle a hog in the mud and eventually win, but the hog will enjoy it.

    As I tried to say in my blog post, there are many things that film can still do far better than the other thing. There is increasing value in the craft of traditional photography. Those truly engaged in personal, creative art know that very well. I am not among those laboring to construct works of homage to 100 year old photographs, nor do I seek someone's else tripod holes. I am a living, breathing, young photographer using film to do new kinds of photography. And I think there are very unique and valuable things that film (and alt printing and wetplate etc) can do now.
    "Only dead fish follow the stream"

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  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by segedi View Post
    I would agree, but it appears there are some folks on this site who really don't want this project to succeed.
    Tom, on Point Pelee, Canada

    Ansel Adams had the Zone System... I'm working on the points system. First I points it here, and then I points it there...

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  9. #89

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    One of the challenges for any medium to be appetizing to a potential creative user, even if more niche & expensive, is that bold and fresh looks are key in keeping all interested parties engaged, not just those on APUG. The other thing is that if a medium seems unstable to a potential long term user in terms of availability, he views other options if that is a particularly important aspect of his choice. So knowing just how niche this might all become is probably in the pit of many a stomach on this site as we think about what our do or die products are. So keeping film around is about moving forward with it, keeping it edgy, good and visible.

    For a host of reasons, makers of film just don't put forth even a fraction of the marketing budget for film that others do for digital so it really is up to us, the film user to commit fully to the medium and then promote it a like a pink pimp in Harlem.

    How does the viewer of photography online and elsewhere find the best photography currently being made on film? This site could have a home page engine that loops that very answer beautifully right before our eyes but there is just nothing. Move the twitter feed and shrink the left a bit and loop a gallery for god's sake, it's overdue...

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by segedi View Post
    OK, so everybody here go put $10 in the kitty. Or more if you can afford it. I know some folks here can kick in at least $50.
    Michael Batchelor
    Industrial Informatics, Inc.
    www.industrialinformatics.com

    The camera catches light. The photographer catches life.

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