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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmas View Post
    correct tense...

    And they went out of business low margin overall profit = loss...

    The companies need to make a profit. Their receiver should have the IPR, does anyone want to buy & prototype the film again, and make a loss?
    They went out of business because their factory fell down, if I remember correctly. They can't have been making much money---they weren't able to repair the factory, after all---but they maintained regular production of the IR film right up to the end and I don't know any reason to think they were losing money; do you?

    -NT
    Nathan Tenny
    San Diego, CA, USA

    The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
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  2. #92
    Photo Engineer's Avatar
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    Sorry for the error.

    That is $50K - $100K for one experiment. That is current at about this time and degree of inflation. Also, it is correct that EFKE is no longer in production of any film.

    PE

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    They went out of business because their factory fell down, if I remember correctly. They can't have been making much money---they weren't able to repair the factory, after all---but they maintained regular production of the IR film right up to the end and I don't know any reason to think they were losing money; do you?

    -NT
    maybe...
    http://www.adox.de/english/styled-4/index.html
    but...
    the rumor I heared was their coater broke and it was too expensive to repair. If your auto breaks and you cannot afford to fix it you walk.
    Adox might restart the IR you could try but the volume might inhibit donno.
    I used a lot of their film to.

  4. #94
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    It is about right, Noel. That was the last drop in a succession of problems. You can see here the state the factory is: http://thefotokemikaproject.wordpres...ctory-samobor/
    Fed 2, 4, 5
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  5. #95

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    It is probably too late for the far IR people to try and fund repairs now as the staff with expertise will have long gone.

    They were probably selling their film too cheap.

  6. #96
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntenny View Post
    So what was going on with Efke/Fotokemika? Their whole production scale seems to have been pretty small---I certainly don't think they were supplying any major military customers with IR film, though I suppose they may have inherited technology from someone who was.

    I understand the objections raised by PE and others, and of course Simon's comments are dispositive wrt Ilford---but then how is it possible that a single small company with an outdated factory was able to do it? (Probably the outdated technology itself meant they didn't have the IR tools for quality control---but that in itself seems to prove that there are viable alternatives to those tools!)

    -NT
    I don't know, but I seem to recall that there were quality control issues with Efke films. Possibly because they didn't have the IR equipment for quality control.
    Matt

    “Photography is a complex and fluid medium, and its many factors are not applied in simple sequence. Rather, the process may be likened to the art of the juggler in keeping many balls in the air at one time!”

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  7. #97
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmas View Post
    The companies need to make a profit.
    Oh dear...

    I knew I shouldn't have asked. Never mind.



    Ken
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Oh dear...

    I knew I shouldn't have asked. Never mind.



    Ken
    HiKen

    I apologize for being blunt.

    I was using their film too it was cheap and had no QA issues.

    Id a payed a lot more & now feel guilty as we have squeezed a small supplier and lost several films thereby.

    Bitter lesson but likely to be repeated.

    Noel

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmas View Post
    Id a payed a lot more & now feel guilty as we have squeezed a small supplier and lost several films thereby.
    Well, it's not like we were asked to pick a price; I think most of us assumed they were charging what they needed to! (And in defense of Ken's slightly testy response, I'm pretty sure most of us were already aware that the company needed to make a profit. I also suspect they didn't last for 65 years without noticing that themselves.)

    Mirko probably knows more than anyone else on APUG about the life and times of Efke, and might be able to shed some light on how much of their work is feasible to replicate. We do know that to bring an emulsion to market similar to Efke 100, he and Adox had to evaluate the price, and CHS II 100 ended up being quite a bit more expensive than its ancestor---but not outlandishly so, and we outside observers necessarily don't know how much of the cost increase came from where.

    If he turned up with an Adox IR820 with a price similarly scaled up relative to the Efke version, I think plenty of people would be excited---but "plenty" is defined in terms of the market for infrared film, which of course is small.

    I just get frustrated when these threads seem to produce the sentiment "It's hard, and therefore IT CAN NEVER BE DONE BY ANYONE EVER AND YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF IDIOTS WHO THINK PRODUCTS JUST HAPPEN BY MAGIC!!1!!one!!". OK, I exaggerate a little, but really only a little.

    -NT
    Nathan Tenny
    San Diego, CA, USA

    The lady of the house has to be a pretty swell sort of person to put up with the annoyance of a photographer.
    -The Little Technical Library, _Developing, Printing, And Enlarging_

  10. #100
    Ken Nadvornick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xmas View Post
    I apologize for being blunt.
    It has nothing to do with being blunt, Noel. It has everything to do with yet another example of trying to prove the truth of a proposition by using reverse inference. That can't happen.

    It's the logical equivalent of claiming that the Antarctic glaciers melted and millions of people worldwide were driven from their homes and drowned in the ensuing floods, all because Johnny's mom drove him to school last Thursday in a gasoline-burning automobile. Had she made him walk to school, those damned glaciers would still be there.

    One can successfully argue upward from the many specific instances to a single generalized conclusion. But one can't reverse that direction and argue downward that the generalized conclusion is the root cause proof of any one of the specific instances. That's what you are trying to do. That's why your cause-and-effect lines don't meet.

    All companies need to make a profit. We all know that. We are not ignorant. But telling me "companies need to make a profit" tells me absolutely nothing about the feasibility of manufacture of the IR film in question. And implying that as the primary reason for the discontinuance of that IR film is a blatant attempt at reverse inference.

    What you are saying is that companies need to make a profit, Efke couldn't make that profit by manufacturing IR film, so Efke went out of business.

    As if there were no other aggravating circumstances. Except that there were. Read this post by someone with intimate knowledge of the Efke crash-and-burn. No mention whatsoever of IR film as the specific aggravating circumstance.

    And still, none of the above addresses the base question posed by Nathan earlier, and subsequently echoed by me.

    Ken
    "When making a portrait, my approach is quite the same as when I am portraying a rock. I do not wish to impose my personality upon the sitter, but, keeping myself open to receive reactions from his own special ego, record this with nothing added: except of course when I am working professionally, when money enters in,—then for a price, I become a liar..."

    — Edward Weston, Daybooks, Vol. II, February 2, 1932



 

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