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  1. #61
    omaha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AgX View Post
    Keep in mind that the revenues of halide materials are still huge in absolute figures. You are totally off with your figure for the moment.
    Really? I'm pleased to hear that.

    How much am I off? One order of magnitude (meaning a company could expect $50 million in revenue)? Two orders of magnitude? (I have a hard time thinking there is a $500 million market for photographic film in 2014, but I could be wrong).

    Does anyone here have access to reasonably reliable, reasonably current data on the size of the photographic film market in 2014? I'd be interested in seeing the numbers.

    And to be more specific, I mean film sales excluding industrial/medical/whatever uses, and excluding motion picture film. I mean sales to photographers.
    I shoot digital when I have to (most of those shots end up here) and film (occasionally one of those shots ends up here) when I want to.

  2. #62

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    "Last I heard", the North American market gobbled up ~30 million rolls of film in 2013, up from 22 million in 2012; not including motion picture footage.

    I wish I had a viable link.

    Is there a viable source revealing the reality?
    Last edited by wblynch; 04-09-2014 at 01:57 PM. Click to view previous post history.
    - Bill Lynch

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Those who worry are proactive, and very little sneaks up and bites them in the butt. Those who don't worry are reactive, and generally have butts covered with painful teeth marks. And since danger in life is ever present, I'll take the former approach over the latter any day. It makes sitting in chairs much easier.
    Ken, I'll just point out that both of these strategies have survived the last five million years.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by omaha View Post
    release all of their remaining film manufacturing IP to the public domain.
    For free? Unpossible. For a royalty or license fee? Absolutely. That would be KA-as-a-tech-company's dream come true - license your existing intellectual property, collect the money and never get your hands dirty making things.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by omaha View Post
    Truth.
    Financially, an aggressive management team would have seen 15 years ago that film was going away and taken action to get into something else.
    Like digital sensors? I think they tried that, but were unable to pull it off.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by wblynch View Post
    "Last I heard", the North American market gobbled up ~30 million rolls of film in 2013, up from 22 million in 2012; not including motion picture footage.

    I wish I had a viable link.

    Is there a viable source revealing the reality?
    Anecdotally, I overheard (in a local camera shop) a salesman saying they've been selling film like mad and 'have trouble keeping it on the shelf'. I take this with a grain of salt, but it supports your 25% growth figure.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Moments ago I received a reply from Mr. Gabershagen thanking me for reaching out to him. He wrote that he'd forwarded my message to Kodak Alaris' Director of Operations / VP in the UK and Film Capture Business Manager in Rochester so they can "assist with my questions."

    I'll post again if/when substantive answers are received.
    Yesterday morning the Film Capture Business Manager (heritage Eastman Kodak, located in Rochester), having been delegated to deal with my questions, sent a reply of exactly the nature I expected:

    "Dear Mr. Santamaura,

    As you've noted, our award-winning portfolio of consumer and professional films are manufactured in Eastman Kodak's world-class film factory via a supply agreement. Unfortunately, due to commercial and contractual reasons it is not possible for us to answer many of your questions directly.

    That said, film is our heritage. Kodak Alaris remains committed to the film capture business and has the ability to meet the needs of our customers for the foreseeable future.

    Sincerely,

    Thomas J. Mooney | Product Line Business Mgr - Film Capture | "

    While he might have included a blind copy to the CEO, what I received was addressed to only me. I quickly sent this follow up to both him and Ralf Gabershagen:

    "Dear Mr. Mooney and Mr. Gabershagen,

    I anticipated you might be bound by PIAs with Eastman Kodak Company that would prevent you from answering my questions. It nonetheless seemed worthwhile to ask them, on the off chance that a subset fell within the "allowable" range. Mr. Mooney's response included the phrase "it is not possible for us to answer many of your questions directly." Does that mean there are any you can answer? If so, I look forward to hearing more.

    My inquiry reflects the interest of a lifelong Kodak film user whose late mother was even a Kodak employee seven decades ago. It has been painful to watch the brand plunge toward oblivion while corporate management made decisions that appeared to have enhanced external forces conspiring against silver halide imaging, rather than working against them. Lately, substantial price increases for Kodak film, combined with the kind of vague statements found in Alaris communications, including Mr. Mooney's response ("Kodak Alaris...has the ability to meet the needs of our customers for the foreseeable future"), have convinced me that the foreseeable future ends very soon. Perhaps as soon as next year. I take no pleasure from this and hoped that, if you could disseminate substantive, positive answers, your loyal customers would be willing to pay higher prices and stick with your film products. Absent such transparency, I suspect flight to competitors' films will continue unabated, if not increase rapidly. Already some of your staunchest supporters have publicly indicated that much of their work is now being done using non-Kodak films.

    While the "contractual reasons" Mr. Mooney cites for inability to disclose information may not be easily overcome, in my opinion perpetuating secrecy on these matters for "commercial reasons" is exactly the wrong decision. If KPP accepted Kodak Alaris as the best bankruptcy deal it could extract and hopes to milk film sales for as long as Eastman Kodak will coat product, then abandon the market, you might do well enough. However, if Kodak Alaris has any desire to continue in the film business after Building 38's coating line joins Building 29's on the scrap heap, I strongly suggest a much more open dialog with your customers. That's the only thing imaginable which might motivate them to stick with you at today's prices.

    My sincere best wishes for success.

    Sal Santamaura"

    I waited a full day before posting this in case anything further came from either of them. It's been silent. Given how Gebershagen responded to the Democrat and Chronicle's questions in that article Fred linked to, I'm neither surprised, expecting real information from Alaris nor able to conclude its "commitment" to film differs in any way from that of Eastman Kodak.

  8. #68

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    thanks sal !

    ===


    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Nadvornick View Post
    Reasoned and relevant discussion is occurring here.

    Ignoring such threads is also always an option.

    Ken
    doesn't sound like a lynch mob is reasoned
    this person has nothing to do with what happened before
    yet he is painted with the same old brush that kodak is always painted with.
    it is sad for anyone to think that even if george eastman came back from the grave in 2000
    and tried his best to keep kodak alive in a changing market that he would have been able to
    keep the company from going bankrupt ?


    and to think that alaris would bring back slide film ?
    or anything else that would dilute its current small share in film photography?
    no one is left to process color film, the infrastructure has been removed yet people still want it ?

    yep, another thread to soon be on ignore, not very reasoned discussion

  9. #69
    Thomas Bertilsson's Avatar
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    Sal,

    I sent them a letter to similar extent, looking at how they communicate with their customers along with a huge improvement in their distribution model, making the product available for people to purchase.

    Good job. You expressed yourself far better than I was able to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Yesterday morning the Film Capture Business Manager (heritage Eastman Kodak, located in Rochester), having been delegated to deal with my questions, sent a reply of exactly the nature I expected:
    "Dear Mr. Santamaura,

    As you've noted, our award-winning portfolio of consumer and professional films are manufactured in Eastman Kodak's world-class film factory via a supply agreement. Unfortunately, due to commercial and contractual reasons it is not possible for us to answer many of your questions directly.

    That said, film is our heritage. Kodak Alaris remains committed to the film capture business and has the ability to meet the needs of our customers for the foreseeable future.

    Sincerely,

    Thomas J. Mooney | Product Line Business Mgr - Film Capture | "

    While he might have included a blind copy to the CEO, what I received was addressed to only me. I quickly sent this follow up to both him and Ralf Gabershagen:
    "Dear Mr. Mooney and Mr. Gabershagen,

    I anticipated you might be bound by PIAs with Eastman Kodak Company that would prevent you from answering my questions. It nonetheless seemed worthwhile to ask them, on the off chance that a subset fell within the "allowable" range. Mr. Mooney's response included the phrase "it is not possible for us to answer many of your questions directly." Does that mean there are any you can answer? If so, I look forward to hearing more.

    My inquiry reflects the interest of a lifelong Kodak film user whose late mother was even a Kodak employee seven decades ago. It has been painful to watch the brand plunge toward oblivion while corporate management made decisions that appeared to have enhanced external forces conspiring against silver halide imaging, rather than working against them. Lately, substantial price increases for Kodak film, combined with the kind of vague statements found in Alaris communications, including Mr. Mooney's response ("Kodak Alaris...has the ability to meet the needs of our customers for the foreseeable future"), have convinced me that the foreseeable future ends very soon. Perhaps as soon as next year. I take no pleasure from this and hoped that, if you could disseminate substantive, positive answers, your loyal customers would be willing to pay higher prices and stick with your film products. Absent such transparency, I suspect flight to competitors' films will continue unabated, if not increase rapidly. Already some of your staunchest supporters have publicly indicated that much of their work is now being done using non-Kodak films.

    While the "contractual reasons" Mr. Mooney cites for inability to disclose information may not be easily overcome, in my opinion perpetuating secrecy on these matters for "commercial reasons" is exactly the wrong decision. If KPP accepted Kodak Alaris as the best bankruptcy deal it could extract and hopes to milk film sales for as long as Eastman Kodak will coat product, then abandon the market, you might do well enough. However, if Kodak Alaris has any desire to continue in the film business after Building 38's coating line joins Building 29's on the scrap heap, I strongly suggest a much more open dialog with your customers. That's the only thing imaginable which might motivate them to stick with you at today's prices.

    My sincere best wishes for success.

    Sal Santamaura"

    I waited a full day before posting this in case anything further came from either of them. It's been silent. Given how Gebershagen responded to the Democrat and Chronicle's questions in that article Fred linked to, I'm neither surprised, expecting real information from Alaris nor able to conclude its "commitment" to film differs in any way from that of Eastman Kodak.
    "Often moments come looking for us". - Robert Frank

    "Make good art!" - Neil Gaiman

    "...the heart and mind are the true lens of the camera". - Yousuf Karsh

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Cunningham View Post
    Like digital sensors? I think they tried that, but were unable to pull it off.
    Ummm... Wrong, they were quite successful, they just foolishly sold off the parents because they thought film was better at image making...
    ~Stone | "...of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." ~Dennis Miller



 

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