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Thread: More on Kodak

  1. #21

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    Vote with your feet or something about 32" higher. Piss on Kodak. It's a company gone bad. Bless Mister Eastman. It's been downhill ever since.

  2. #22
    jd callow's Avatar
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    Good company or bad -- How many 'Good' companies of that size are there --I need their product right now and for the seeable future.

    I'll cut my nose off when I grow gills and we're all living under water.

    *

  3. #23
    MattKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjstafford
    Vote with your feet or something about 32" higher. Piss on Kodak. It's a company gone bad. Bless Mister Eastman. It's been downhill ever since.
    Okay, I've bit my tongue as long as I can hold out, but I have to reply now.

    First, for those of you who don't know, I might be referred to as a Kodak "brat". My father worked for Kodak Canada for 36 years, retiring in 1984 when I was 28. Indirectly, I was fed, clothed, housed and educated with Kodak $ and Kodak knowledge for all of my formative years. My father and mother rely on a Kodak pension, which for the most part is generous, and flexible (i.e. the medical and dental benefits have for the most part continued to evolve as times have changed during my father's 20+ years of retirement). My Dad started out with Kodak at an entry level job, and left as a middle level manager.

    From my perspective, Kodak was always fair to its employees, in fact reasonably generous. It continues to provide services to its retirees, even though its financial circumstances are clearly not what they used to be.

    Kodak has always been a very big organization, and suffered some of the problems that go with that, but as far as I am aware there isn't even a hint that there have been any actions from Kodak like any of the recent scandals that have plagued some of the large corporate entities (Enron, etc.) recently.

    Kodak is struggling with difficulties, and has discontinued business in at least one area that matters to us here - B&W paper. It clearly has made mistakes, and will probably make more, and some of those mistakes may result in products being discontinued that we would prefer remain available, but surely that is reason to criticize Kodak, not treat it with utter contempt.

    To the best of my knowledge, Kodak hasn't ceased production without warning, sought bankruptcy protection or even stated that it intends to leave the film based photographic business. It has just sought to expand radically into the digital business, and react to a shrinking film business, probably in some ways we won't like.

    This is a long, round-about way of saying to those who who have nothing good to say about Kodak, that you might wish to moderate your opinion somewhat.

    It is also in particular a request to jjstafford - please change your avatar - it is really irritating to be presented time and time again with the image of someone urinating over a symbol of something that has value for thousands of people, and has particular value to those of us who rightly feel a strong feeling of loyalty to an organization which has personnally benefitted us greatly. I know that if my father saw it, it would make him sick, and considering the thousands of photographers of all types that he helped in his years of work, that seems incredibly unfair.

  4. #24
    djklmnop's Avatar
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    You know what's funny? Fuji is somewhat similar to Kodak, in terms of production. They make films, digital cameras, but not paper nor chemicals. Either way, I never hear them complaining. Like Kodak, Fuji's digital offerings isn't in high demand as Canon or Nikon's SLRS. I don't hear Fuji complaining about profit losses.

    Perhaps I'm wrong, but Kodak needs to learn how to sell their products again. Otherwise, in the near future, the news headline will be, "Kodak ran out of things to blame for their profit losses."
    Money is not the problem. The problem is, I don't have any.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing
    Okay, I've bit my tongue as long as I can hold out, but I have to reply now.

    First, for those of you who don't know, I might be referred to as a Kodak "brat". My father worked for Kodak Canada for 36 years, retiring in 1984 when I was 28. Indirectly, I was fed, clothed, housed and educated with Kodak $ and Kodak knowledge for all of my formative years. My father and mother rely on a Kodak pension, which for the most part is generous, and flexible (i.e. the medical and dental benefits have for the most part continued to evolve as times have changed during my father's 20+ years of retirement). My Dad started out with Kodak at an entry level job, and left as a middle level manager.

    From my perspective, Kodak was always fair to its employees, in fact reasonably generous. It continues to provide services to its retirees, even though its financial circumstances are clearly not what they used to be.
    <snip>
    My father worked for a division of Kodak for about 10 years after he retired with 30+ years from GTE. I have a Kodak flag tacked up on a wall in my garage (no shit, I really do!) and have a couple of hundred sheets and several hundred feet of Kodak 35mm film in my 'fridge. I've both loved and hated various Kodak products for over 30 years.

    Regardless of any of that, I still feel that Kodak's board is screwing the pooch. Like I said, Kodak isn't the only big company that messes up. Back in the early 1970's, my father led a design team at GTE that developed a huge, flat panel television plasma display. GTE Brass wasn't interested (though they did get the patents) saying "no one wants to hang a big TV on the wall". Shortly after, the Brass sold off Sylvania to Phillips and got out of the TV market. Had they run with the ball instead of dropping it, well... you get the picture.
    Bob Fowler
    fowler@verizon.net
    Some people are like Slinkies. They're really good for nothing, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

  6. #26
    bobfowler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djklmnop
    You know what's funny? Fuji is somewhat similar to Kodak, in terms of production. They make films, digital cameras, but not paper nor chemicals. Either way, I never hear them complaining. Like Kodak, Fuji's digital <snip>
    Errr... Who makes Crystal Archive paper then?
    Bob Fowler
    fowler@verizon.net
    Some people are like Slinkies. They're really good for nothing, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

  7. #27
    jd callow's Avatar
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    they make ra, c41 and e6 chems as well. Fuji may or may not be having the same problems as kodak or may be better prepared. I don't hear Kodak whining, I do think they have made some really bad choices though. I hope they make it through and I really hope they sell off the film segment of their business rather than scrap it.

    *

  8. #28
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    There's another aspect of Kodak that I think lots for folks here are either missing, or don't want to see. I don't know actual production numbers, so I'll use theoretical ones. Kodak is/was setup for large production. All their machinery for making paper / film / etc. is designed to make large runs of it. Another company that's setup to make much smaller runs can make smaller runs much more economically than Kodak can. The film market IS getting smaller, and (for the masses) digital IS taking over. That's a fact, like it or not (and I don't like it any more than anyone else here does). So on to my theoretical numbers...

    If Kodak is setup to produce 100,000 sheets of photographic paper a month, but is now only selling 10,000 sheets a month, they can't compete with a smaller company that's setup to make 15,000 sheets a month, and is making 10,000 sheets per month. Considering that paper is a dated material, it's not like they can make a 10 year supply, then mothball their production line for 10 years!

    The bottom line is that we don't know the inside numbers, and I think it's harsh to judge what a company does without knowing the inside info. Having said that, it's completely possible that knowing the numbers, the choices Kodak is making would make complete sense. It's also possible that knowing the numbers, their moves might only make sense to a Harvard Business School graduate/moron, what some on one computer related mailing list I subscribe to call 'suits'. Personally I'm more inclined to believe the second explanation, but the fact is I just don't know.

    As for using Kodak products, I'm going to use whatever I can get, be it Kodak, or otherwise, I'm not going to go out of my way to stock up on Kodak, and I'm not going to go out of my way to avoid Kodak.

    -Mike

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing
    Okay, I've bit my tongue as long as I can hold out, but I have to reply now.

    First, for those of you who don't know, I might be referred to as a Kodak "brat". My father worked for Kodak Canada for 36 years, retiring in 1984 when I was 28. Indirectly, I was fed, clothed, housed and educated with Kodak $ and Kodak knowledge for all of my formative years.
    [...]
    This is a long, round-about way of saying to those who who have nothing good to say about Kodak, that you might wish to moderate your opinion somewhat.
    I have used the Kodak Company history under Mister Eastman as the sterling example of how a private company can excel in terms of product development, care of the employees (hugely generous), and public works. I won't stop doing that.

    But that was then, and this is now and the contrast of 'then' to 'now' is serving so far as a good historical example of what can happen under the new American capitalist ethic of the public company.

    I pray Kodak does not do what so many companies have - abandon pensions, screw the retired and employees. The fact that they can legally do this, and that they DO this points to something truly gone wrong.

    I hope that Kodak continues to honor it's commitment to employees.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattKing
    It is also in particular a request to jjstafford - please change your avatar - it is really irritating to be presented time and time again with the image of someone urinating over a symbol of something that has value for thousands of people, and has particular value to those of us who rightly feel a strong feeling of loyalty to an organization which has personnally benefitted us greatly. I know that if my father saw it, it would make him sick, and considering the thousands of photographers of all types that he helped in his years of work, that seems incredibly unfair.
    If we were all to be given a special privilege to be guaranteed our individual distates would not be offended, freedom of expression would be dead.

    Sean has already taken it upon himself to remove my Avatar. He has already censored it on your behalf. I hope you are happy. Perhaps you can post a list of your other sensitivities are so that we don't offend you again.

  10. #30
    Greg Davis's Avatar
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    I would imagine that much a Kodak's film sales came from the disposable cameras they made. I am not surprised that they claim decreased sales in film when they already announced they ceased production of their film cameras. It's hard to sell a product you don't offer.
    www.gregorytdavis.com

    Did millions of people suddenly disappear? This may have an answer.

    "No one knows that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." -Matthew 24:36

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