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  1. #41

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    I don't know how it is in China, but my country was socialistic (some sort of weak communism) country up to 1992. Now we are free democratic country with free market, etc... Having in mind workers rights, sallaries, standard of living today compared to those "dark times in which people didn't have rights, etc...", I would love those socialistic times back. Period.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by haris
    I don't know how it is in China, but my country was socialistic (some sort of weak communism) country up to 1992. Now we are free democratic country with free market, etc... Having in mind workers rights, sallaries, standard of living today compared to those "dark times in which people didn't have rights, etc...", I would love those socialistic times back. Period.
    Mr. Moderator, maybe we should move this thread to the lounge or something. It seems to have gone off topic. Anyway, workers rights are not exclusively the domain of a socialist country. Here in the USA there was a long and bloody struggle for labor union legitimacy. Our workers today enjoy a high standard of living and as many rights as anywhere else. We are also a free democratic country and as far from socialistic as can be. If you want the same thing in your country, you will need to be part of a movement to organize your labor. There's no shortcut and no free ride. If you want this in a free society, its up to you to earn it. Nobody will hand it to you.

    Perhaps that is the difference between a 'capitalist' and 'socialist' society. Where as we know that if change is to occur, we must do it ourselves. In your country, your government instituted change by fiat. The worker was treated as a child who could not fend for himself. I hope that has not come off as an over-simplification. If so then I'm sure another APUG'er will step in and correct me. :-)

  3. #43

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    I am sorry, I won't participate here with anything but strictly Kodak oriented words.

    It is my fault, I apologize again.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by SchwinnParamount
    I'd love to see it too but since labor unions are illegal there and the corporations there are so in love with obscene profits, I don't expect Chinese workers to earn a decent wage until there is another 'cultural revolution'.

    Does it seem 'fair' that a country which does not allow for collective bargaining to be trading on the same footing as the rest of the world?
    Get the facts straight first. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

    Almost all chinese large enterprises have labor unions. It might be not in your favor. But they exist in all large enough factories, etc.

    For example, Wal-mart does not allow any labor union established in its Chinese stores. Wal-mart has succeeded in North America for this union ban except Canada. But last year it yielded under workers and Chinese authorities' pressure.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by collect888
    Get the facts straight first. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

    Almost all chinese large enterprises have labor unions. It might be not in your favor. But they exist in all large enough factories, etc.

    .
    It would be a good idea to define terms. Yes, it is true that a labor union exists in the PRC.

    Under Chinese law, the All China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU) is the only trade union recognized in China. It exercises a legal and heavily protected monopoly over all subsidiary union organizations and trade union activities. It remains under the control of the Communist Party, which appoints its officials. This means that by law there is no possibility of truly independent unions forming in China, which compromises workers' freedom of association.

    In addition, as of 1982 it is illegal for workers in China to strike. The 'collective bargaining' contracts are negotiated between the government and company managers. The worker has no say in his contract. Without the ability to strike, the worker has no recourse but to accept whatever wages have been negotiated for him by the government.

    So as you can see, China does have a labor union but it is like a toothless dog and as impotent as a marshmellow.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by SchwinnParamount
    It would be a good idea to define terms. Yes, it is true that a labor union exists in the PRC.

    Under Chinese law, the All China Federation of Trade Unions (ACFTU) is the only trade union recognized in China. It exercises a legal and heavily protected monopoly over all subsidiary union organizations and trade union activities. It remains under the control of the Communist Party, which appoints its officials. This means that by law there is no possibility of truly independent unions forming in China, which compromises workers' freedom of association.

    In addition, as of 1982 it is illegal for workers in China to strike. The 'collective bargaining' contracts are negotiated between the government and company managers. The worker has no say in his contract. Without the ability to strike, the worker has no recourse but to accept whatever wages have been negotiated for him by the government.

    So as you can see, China does have a labor union but it is like a toothless dog and as impotent as a marshmellow.
    Ok now you realize labor union is in every corner of China. But sadly it is not in your favor.

    If one is looking for spaghetti, he should go to an Italian restaurant. If one is looking for Peking Duck, go to a Chinese restaurant, or better, go to a better restaurant in Beijing. You should not look for an American or European styled labor union in China. It won't be there.

    The English who came to this continent became the American English. Labor union in China could be different from labor union of other places. Do you realize McDonald's changes its recipe in China to adapt to the Chinese tastes? Would you tell me it is not McDonald's or that McDonald's does not exist in China? Or would you want to complain to McDonald's they are making tasteless McNuggets or impotent Big Mac's in China?

  7. #47

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    [QUOTE=SchwinnParamount]Mr. Moderator, maybe we should move this thread to the lounge or something. It seems to have gone off topic. Anyway, workers rights are not exclusively the domain of a socialist country. Here in the USA there was a long and bloody struggle for labor union legitimacy. Our workers today enjoy a high standard of living and as many rights as anywhere else. [COLOR=DarkOrange]We are also a free democratic country and as far from socialistic as can be. [/COLOR] If you want the same thing in your country, you will need to be part of a movement to organize your labor. There's no shortcut and no free ride. If you want this in a free society, its up to you to earn it. Nobody will hand it to you.

    That's funny.

    Look for Boeing to move all operations out of your state by 2009, thanks to the good ole unions, china is looking good.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by collect888
    Ok now you realize labor union is in every corner of China. But sadly it is not in your favor.

    If one is looking for spaghetti, he should go to an Italian restaurant. If one is looking for Peking Duck, go to a Chinese restaurant, or better, go to a better restaurant in Beijing. You should not look for an American or European styled labor union in China. It won't be there.

    The English who came to this continent became the American English. Labor union in China could be different from labor union of other places. Do you realize McDonald's changes its recipe in China to adapt to the Chinese tastes? Would you tell me it is not McDonald's or that McDonald's does not exist in China? Or would you want to complain to McDonald's they are making tasteless McNuggets or impotent Big Mac's in China?
    Clearly you did not read what I wrote. What good is a 'labor union' where the worker has NO SAY in his wages. He cannot strike, he cannot vote on contracts. he can do nothing. the organization is called a 'Labor union' but it is CLEARLY NOT A LABOR UNION. the labor unions that I speak about are a completely different animal than what exists in China. Is this difficult to understand? It is a question of who wields power in china. The labor union gives the worker no power. What use is a union like that?

  9. #49
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    [QUOTE=TomWB]
    Quote Originally Posted by SchwinnParamount
    Mr. Moderator, maybe we should move this thread to the lounge or something. It seems to have gone off topic. Anyway, workers rights are not exclusively the domain of a socialist country. Here in the USA there was a long and bloody struggle for labor union legitimacy. Our workers today enjoy a high standard of living and as many rights as anywhere else. [COLOR=DarkOrange]We are also a free democratic country and as far from socialistic as can be. [/COLOR] If you want the same thing in your country, you will need to be part of a movement to organize your labor. There's no shortcut and no free ride. If you want this in a free society, its up to you to earn it. Nobody will hand it to you.

    That's funny.

    Look for Boeing to move all operations out of your state by 2009, thanks to the good ole unions, china is looking good.
    those 'good ole unions' you speak about have done a lot of good in this country for the powerless. Boeing may choose to move out of the state but it will certainly not be because of unions. Do you think unions do not exist in Kansas? Before shooting off about Boeing up here, you should do a little research. It would save you some embarassment. Boeing is considering leaving the state because they 1: didn't get the size state tax breaks they wanted and 2: Washington chose not to improve the transportation infrastructure to the degree Boeing wanted. It has NOTHING to do with wages in the state.

  10. #50

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    Too much political stuff. Let's switch to photography instead.

    (Mr Collect888 presents Mr SP with a Pinhole camera) Here is a pinhole camera.

    SP: No this is not a camera. What good is a 'camera' where there is NO LENS in its functions. It cannot zoom, it cannot focusing, he can do nothing.

    Collect888: I know it is not a traditional camera you usually see in your life. But you have to allow variations, especially everyone's requirement for a camera is different.

    SP: Clearly you did not read what I wrote. The thing is called a 'Camera' but it is CLEARLY NOT A CAMERA. the cameras that I speak about are a completely different animal than this thing made in China and without any glass. Is this difficult to understand? It is a question of lens and glass used in the camera. This kind of camera gives the photographer no glass. What use is a camera like that?

    Collect888: Haha, seems you have very simple mindset. A thing can never be changed in your mind and have to match your definition. If it doesn't match your definition or point of view then it is not the thing. The problem is your knowledge for THE THING is so limited and always from very narrow, second or third hand source that most time you even cannot get the fact straight.

    SP: Before shooting off about my knowledge here, you should do a little research. It would save you some embarassment. 1. I read a lot about the camera using this very best Microsoft browser. 2. I watch a lot of TV news about the camera. I can swear This thing has NOTHING to do with the camera.


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